Hey all, On and off for the past year or two, I've been looking for a better set of compositional tools than my current setup based on two factors: a) The program has an alternative to a piano roll; i.e., a normal score editor or something of that sort, and b) It supports user-inserted (doesn't just have its own VSTi banks, basically) VSTi plugins in addition to MIDI instruments. Currently I use Guitar Pro 5 for actual composition (it has its flaws, but it's the most comfortable MIDI editor for me personally), and export the songs as MIDI files to FL Studio for mastering and VSTi support. This isn't really ideal, because I can't always accommodate all the nuances of the VSTi sets I choose, or even really anticipate what some of them will sound like in context without a fair amount of back-and-forth between the two programs mid-composition. When I started looking for a program that combined the two features above, I didn't expect it to be a particularly difficult enterprise to find a good fit, but as of yet, I haven't found anything at all that does just that. About the closest I've been able to find is hooking up MIDI Yoke to Guitar Pro and FL Studio, but that too has some rather large drawbacks (mainly that I haven't found a way to get it to play multiple different VSTis simultaneously). This would probably be an easier search for me if I had a greater tolerance for piano rolls; but, sorry to say, I absolutely cannot stand working with them for extended periods of time, hence the first of the two criteria. =P Anyway, I hoped someone here might have a suggestion or two to point me in the right direction, so I thought I'd make a post. Thanks!

This is very subjective, as pretty much all of the major DAWs can be set up to individual taste, so the only thing you can really do is try them out for yourself.

I don't understand though, you say you don't like the piano roll in FL, so you want a score / note editor, but the piano roll IS a normal note editor, perhaps you mean the play list? In which case, you could just use one pattern as the whole track and it's gone. FL Studios biggest difference to other DAWs is that it's based on a sequencing matrix, so instead of each track being routed by default to its own mixer track, the mixer and the play list are independent, which is actually pretty good in terms of routing flexibility, although a little counter-intuitive in terms of mixing speed. Also, you create sections of music and lace them together, although as I mentioned, you can bypass that completely with no effort at all.

It sounds like you're at a crossroads, if you want to streamline your work-flow into one program, you're going to have to learn, and accommodate for that program. I've never used guitar pro, but if it's significantly different to other DAWs in some way, then you have to either just accept its limitations or learn a new program. Neither is the end of the world, it doesn't usually take more than a few hours to pick up the basics of a new DAW, and only a few weeks to start getting good at it. If you already know FL Studio, you won't find any of the major DAWs too hard.

As for recommendations, there are loads and everybody has their own opinion on which is the best, which isn't likely to be very helpful to you. They all do what you're asking for anyway. Anything that won't let you use 3rd party VSTi / AU units / RTAS etc. isn't worth your time.

A basic list (assuming you use a PC and are more interested in MIDI programming than audio recording?):

Ableton Live, Steinberg Cubase, Propellorhead Reason, Sony Acid Pro, Cockos Reaper, Adobe Audition, Cakewalk Sonar, Magix Samplitude, Presonus Studioone, Mackie Traktion.

There are plenty more, but that should give you some research material ;-) If you're actually more interested in audio, Pro Tools is awesome (although you have to buy specific interfaces for your computer, but the cost for the LE version is pretty affordable), and if you want to get a Mac, Logic Pro and Digital Performer are great.

Quote: Original post by leekenn
I don't understand though, you say you don't like the piano roll in FL, so you want a score / note editor, but the piano roll IS a normal note editor, perhaps you mean the play list?

I thought he meant that he wants some sort of staff/notation view, rather than the usual time-proportional grid.

Quote: I've never used guitar pro, but if it's significantly different to other DAWs in some way, then you have to either just accept its limitations or learn a new program.

Guitar Pro is a guitar tablature program but you can see what you're entering in normal music notation. For entering music in that way I'd say it's better than Sonar's Staff View so perhaps it's better than the likes of Cubase too.

Maybe something like Sibelius or Finale would fit the bill? I've never used either.

Quote: Original post by Kylotan
I thought he meant that he wants some sort of staff/notation view, rather than the usual time-proportional grid.

Yup, that's what I meant in the first post; thanks for clarifying that.

Quote: Maybe something like Sibelius or Finale would fit the bill? I've never used either.

I tried Sibelius, and liked it quite a bit. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that neither it nor Finale allows you to use your own VSTi plugins, they just come with Garritan included for playblack editing, as far as I know. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Quote: Originally posted by Achas
I tried Sibelius, and liked it quite a bit. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that neither it nor Finale allows you to use your own VSTi plugins, they just come with Garritan included for playblack editing, as far as I know. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Actually Finale and Sibelius do allow for your own VSTi plugins to be used.

http://www.finalemusic.com/finale/features/hearingyourmusic/VstAu.aspx

http://www.sibelius.com/products/sibelius/5/vst.html

So it might be a good fit for you!

Finale is the best notation program, imo. and yes, it does support VSTi. Recently, I've been toying around with different VST instrument sets such as Bandstand, which acts like a gm font, and NI Komplete 6, which uses samples through Kontakt player. Bandstand seems glitchy, at least with Finale 2010 and Windows 7. So far I can get just about everything I need from Komplete and the samples are amazing.

simply save your (finale) file as a mid and open it up in your DAW (Cubase, Pro Tools, etc). I'm still exploring this stage to find the best one that works for me...

so far, Cubase seems pretty good, although the interface isn't very user-friendly. What I'd like to be able to do is select a segment of a track and assign a specific channel to it. For instance, I have a harpsichord track that doubles as a harp on the same track. I've been trying to find a way to assign harpsichord to channel 1 and harp to channel 2. I've gotten that far, but I can't figure out how to assign the channels to each segment individually without doing it in real-time as the file plays. I really wish I could just right click on each segment and select which channel for it to play.

I'm downloading pro tools right now and I will try to see if that one is any easier to use for what I need it to do.

Quote: Original post by nsmadsen
Actually Finale and Sibelius do allow for your own VSTi plugins to be used.

http://www.finalemusic.com/finale/features/hearingyourmusic/VstAu.aspx

http://www.sibelius.com/products/sibelius/5/vst.html

So it might be a good fit for you!

Well hah, I'm really surprised I somehow missed that both Finale and Sibelius offer that. Little embarrassing to see I overlooked it, but oh well.

I think one or the other of those is exactly what I was hoping to find. Thanks for mentioning that, and everyone else's input!