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Collateral Murder

Started by April 06, 2010 07:31 PM
81 comments, last by Prinz Eugn 14 years, 6 months ago
Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care
I saw some pictures from the camera the guy was holding and there was actually a US humvee just down the street from them.
According to wikileaks and Reuters, the guys camera was confiscated by the military and the pictures have never been released. Got a link?
Quote: Original post by Talroth
Quote: Original post by Antheus
Quote: Original post by Talroth
Quote: Original post by Don Carnage
Even though Saddam was the lowest scum, and killed thousands of Kurds in Iraq, he didn't attack American civilians during any of the wars.
So, because the civilians who die aren't in our own backyards, we should just turn a blind eye and let such regions continue as such?
Difficult question... Yes, US/UN must never ever bring military force into a sovereign nation without being requested to do so by recognized government.
Please don't be too quick to lump Iraq and Afghanistan together, as they are very different wars. Afghanistan started as a legitimate war in retaliation for attacks by an armed group, of which the local governments offered no support in ending. If someone is attacking you...
Back up a minute... This quote-chain was about iraq and the people Saddam was killing, so it still stands that they should've been left alone by the "world police", right?
Quote: Original post by Hodgman
Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care
I saw some pictures from the camera the guy was holding and there was actually a US humvee just down the street from them.
According to wikileaks and Reuters, the guys camera was confiscated by the military and the pictures have never been released. Got a link?
Quote: Original post by Talroth
Quote: Original post by Antheus
Quote: Original post by Talroth
Quote: Original post by Don Carnage
Even though Saddam was the lowest scum, and killed thousands of Kurds in Iraq, he didn't attack American civilians during any of the wars.
So, because the civilians who die aren't in our own backyards, we should just turn a blind eye and let such regions continue as such?
Difficult question... Yes, US/UN must never ever bring military force into a sovereign nation without being requested to do so by recognized government.
Please don't be too quick to lump Iraq and Afghanistan together, as they are very different wars. Afghanistan started as a legitimate war in retaliation for attacks by an armed group, of which the local governments offered no support in ending. If someone is attacking you...
Back up a minute... This quote-chain was about iraq and the people Saddam was killing, so it still stands that they should've been left alone by the "world police", right?


I would have to look it up, but I think I remember something about the Kurdish people have been trying to gain independence for awhile,... And then they got butchered to keep them down.

So, if a government is willing to butcher anyone that even makes the slightest peep about asking the international world for military aid, the rest of us just shut up and twiddle our thumbs?

(And for the record, I am against the US led invasion of Iraq. It was wrong and immoral. However it would be even more wrong, immoral, and totally unethical to kick up an anthill of what was at the time being fairly stable nation, and then go "opps, sorry!" and run off to let all the factions butcher each other. The end result would be no different. In short, they shouldn't have gone there in the first place, but now that they have they have to stay there and see it through to the peaceful end.)
Old Username: Talroth
If your signature on a web forum takes up more space than your average post, then you are doing things wrong.
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Wars:
Afghanistan was being used as the major base for Al Qaeda, which was supported by the most powerful faction in the country, the Taliban. Invading Afghanistan made sense, it was terrorism central, and the location of much of the Al Qaeda leadership, including Osama Bin Laden.

Invading Iraq was basically a policy decision on the Bush administration's part with the naive goal of creating a friendly democracy in the middle east. Saddam was a brutal dictator, despised by his own people. All you would have to do is defeat the Saddam regime, the people would exchange hearty high fives with your "liberating" soldiers, and you'd have an instant buddy with a reliable oil supply. Or so was the thinking... no one in the administration realized that Saddam was actually holding together the country against sharp sectarian divides that were exacerbated by the recent upswing in violent Islamic extremism- and BOOM, we're in a civil war.

Please note that WMD was essentially a flimsy excuse for the invasion.


As for the crew I think it would be too easy for us to assume that we wouldn't be acting in a similar way if we had the same background. Living in fear for your life, or fear for the life of your fellow soldiers is a powerful force. Combined with the desensitization and addiction to violence and the accompanying adrenaline that often happens to soldiers, you get this kind of (to us) alien culture.

It's been the mistake of every generation to think that they're somehow immune to the drug of war. Go read War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning.


Of course, people like to get upset and feel self-righteous about stuff like this and tend to forget that there was a time when we deliberately targeted civilians. Considering this as a war crime, it pales in comparison to My Lai, where those children would have been finished off point-blank, not taken to a hospital.

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Here's more on wikileaks: Inside WikiLeaks’ Leak Factory

Quote:
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Though the site appears secure for now, its foes have not given up on finding its weaknesses. In March, WikiLeaks published an internal report (PDF [6]) written by an analyst at the Army Counterintelligence Center titled "WikiLeaks.org—An Online Reference to Foreign Intelligence Services, Insurgents, or Terrorist Groups?" The analyst stated that sensitive information posted by WikiLeaks could endanger American soldiers and that the site could be used "to post fabricated information; to post misinformation, disinformation, and propaganda." He concluded that identifying and prosecuting the insiders who pass information on to WikiLeaks "would damage and potentially destroy this center of gravity and deter others from taking similar actions."

WikiLeaks said the report was proof that "U.S. Intelligence planned to destroy" the site. Soon afterwards, Assange asserted that he'd been tailed by two State Department employees on a flight out of Iceland, where he had been lobbying for a new press freedom law. He tweeted [7] that "WikiLeaks is currently under an aggressive US and Icelandic surveillance operation."

Amid this swirl of wanted and unwanted attention, Assange (pronounced A-sanj) lives like a man on the lam. He won't reveal his age—"Why make it easy for the bastards?" He prefers talking on the phone instead of meeting in person, and seems to never use the same number twice. His voice is often hushed, and gaps fill the conversation, as if he's constantly checking over his shoulder. Like him, the organization behind his next-generation whistleblowing machine can also be maddeningly opaque. It's been accused of being conspiratorial, reckless, and even duplicitous in its pursuit of exposing the powerful. "It's a good thing that there's a channel for getting information out that's reliable and can't be compromised," says Harvard law professor Lawrence Lessig [8]. But, he adds, "There's a difference between what you can legally do, what you can technically do, and what you ought to do."
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On the subject of the content of the video, Pepe Escobar has a few interesting things to say: Collateral Pentagon

Quote:
"We've shot an amazing number of people and killed a number and, to my knowledge, none has proven to have been a real threat to the force."

That was General Stanley McChrystal, supreme commander of United States forces in Afghanistan, late last month - during one of the virtual "town hall" meetings held with US troops every two weeks, as reported in the New York Times.

McChrystal added, "To my knowledge, in the nine-plus months I've been here, not a single case where we have engaged in an escalation of force incident and hurt someone has it turned out that the vehicle had a suicide bomb or weapons in it and, in many cases, had families in it."
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Wikileaks calls it "Collateral Murder" (see the video at www.collateralmurder.com) . This is definitely not Academy Award winner The Hurt Locker - where American soldiers are selfless heroes and Iraqis are faceless ghosts. This is real life - with American soldiers as video game killers and Iraqis as corpses. These are the kind of heroes who mistake a telephoto lens for an rocket-propelled grenade.
...


"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
I can only see one thing that I think was not an honest mistake in that entire clip. Looking at the first bit (before they opened fire, maybe 3:50) there is one part where I see two people near the top who really look like they might be carrying AK-47s. Then shortly there is a guy crouched down with what probably is a camera but without prior knowledge I could also have belived some kind of RPG.

I didn't see the kids in the van, even though at the end when they were highlighted I could.

The thing that was wrong for me was they had this guy crawling on the ground, and the soliders held off firing because he didn't have a weapon. When the truck pulls up, they are given permission to engage and no-one asked them whether the people in the truck had weapons. If I were investigating this I would definitely bring up the soliders and the authorisers for not clarifying this before engaging. This assumes that the procedure calls for such a confirmation, and that it wasn't followed.

Other than that, that is war and there will be mistakes. People carrying stuff might appear to have weapons. Its not nice to stomach, but people will die because of stupid mistakes. In hindsight it can appear obvious, but you have to try look at this with fresh eyes. If someone had asked me to do it, with my friends being at risk on the ground, I would have made the same initial call.
Killing journalists is a very effective way to prevent having your shitty ass on the news...

This is not the first time they shoot on the press.

Ave, Caesar!
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Quote: Original post by Hodgman
Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care
I saw some pictures from the camera the guy was holding and there was actually a US humvee just down the street from them.
According to wikileaks and Reuters, the guys camera was confiscated by the military and the pictures have never been released. Got a link?

My friend showed it to me, but I haven't heard back from him on where he saw it.

Here's the link though:
http://i43.tinypic.com/5qpeg.jpg
If I was the chopper guy I wouldn't lose sleep over this because I wouldn't see any point at which I could have done anything differently. There was no mistake, it was all standard, correct play, excepting the callous jokes, which are but a minor, inconsequential sin.
Quote: If I was the chopper guy I wouldn't lose sleep over this because I wouldn't see any point at which I could have done anything differently.

If only people like you were available, a counter-insurgency would NEVER be won. Having one's relatives "mistakenly" killed might be enough for someone to actually pick up an RPG.

Quote: There was no mistake, it was all standard, correct play

It seems you are correct in that permission to fire is actually immediately granted if a simple friendly fire check ("no friendlies east of our position") passes. Such a policy just invites "mistakes" like this, as if they didn't matter.

I see interesting parallels to the tanker truck bombing in Afghanistan. In both cases, the gunner/JTAC flat out lied to obtain permission to engage. The justification of an imminent danger is a joke in both cases (the "rolling bombs" being stuck in mud, under continuous surveillance / the armored antitank helos being entirely safe at that range). Whether it was due to cracking under the strain, frustration at not being able to do anything, or just the itchy trigger that I'd ascribe to the dishonorable cowboys here, the result is: a setback for the mission. Remember "hearts and minds"?

BTW, the German federal prosecutor (civil justice!) is investigating the officer in charge at Kunduz, it looks like he is at least guilty of failing to ensure no civilians were present and/or warning them, and giving demonstrably false information, without which permission to fire would not have been granted. In what way does that not apply here?
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some food for thought and haven't gotten much press because it isn't quite as sensational as the wikileaks video. The wikileaks video took place over 3 years ago, and these are from this year.

NATO kills some pregnant women.

Obama takes Bush-era tactics to the next level, approves assassination of us citizen sans trial

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