Let me just stop for a minute and say, there are some people(mostly not here on this thread, although they did answer here too), stating that 'people should get a clue before talking about physics', referring to my original post. I kinda knew this would happen, that's why I did everything in my power to make it crystal clear that I know better than anyone that I don't know pretty much anything about physics, just wanted to get my question answered on how the big bang didn't cause the forming of a black hole, since it was a tremendous amount of mass in a tiny amount of space:

Quote:
First of all, I apologize to any properly educated physicists, in case my post is horribly naive(which it probably is). I just have an interest on physics, but not much more. I'm just laying down some thoughts and questions. So bear with me :)

But I guess some people want to be jerks no matter what, and will be. Anyway, I got some good answers(particularly the one about entropy), and even with my very limited understanding, I am convinced that the 'Big Bang is a Black Hole' theory does not stand, or at least it needs some major evidence in order to be taken seriously.

So, for those that made fun of it and me for even asking such a question, like 'OMG WHAT IF WE LIVE IN A BLACK HOLE LOL', let me just say that the idea is not mine(nor am I endorsing it as I have no knowledge to actually evaluate cosmological thories), but it's an idea several scientists have at least bothered to *ponder*(others rejecting it, others endorsing it, others leaving the possibility open). Just a couple of examples entertaining the question(you can find others in google):

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0105/0105024v1.pdf
http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/GeneralInterest/Harrison/BlackHoles/BlackHoles.html
http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath339.htm
http://www.ptep-online.com/index_files/2009/PP-18-01.PDF

So, if you are so smart and awesome that you scorn everyone and anyone that dares even to ask such a question, maybe you should take it up with those scientists as well. I am certain you will not be utterly pulverized in any physics/math debate with them.

Carry on.

[Edited by - mikeman on February 17, 2010 9:20:47 AM]

Mikeman, I hope I didn't appear scornful to you when discussing this. I provided a very straightforward answer, and was not indignant to you whatsoever.

The covert antagonism from hodgman and krokhin was uncalled for, and I dealt with it rather well, considering everything. I mean, krokhin knows that "appears to be frozen" is the correct view, yet he deliberately chose to promote the "is frozen" view. I can't think of a more deliberate attempt at derailing a thread in a non-constructive manner. I knew before this thread that krokhin is familiar with general relativity, so his negative motivation was clear to me immediately. As well, the multiverse isn't well-established science, nor is there a consensus on it. All said though, there is a consensus on all of the things that I discussed.

I said I'm not a physicist several times in this thread, and was trying to be cautious about how much information that I gave out. If you aren't satisfied with the answers I provided, then please feel free to double check them. I never said I would debate well with a physicist, but that a physicist would be hard-pressed to find fatal errors in my answers. If I were truly clueless about physics though, then I wouldn't have been able to spot the subtle error in Washu's calculation. I certainly wasn't indignant when I posted my correction. If you're referring to my snotty comment about n-bit integers, then let me make it clear that the indignation was pointed directly at hodgman and krokhin.

When it comes down to it, it's been known since 1924 that the singularity at the event horizon is a coordinate singularity (see: Eddington, "A Comparison of Whitehead's and Einstein's Formulae"). This is nearly 100 years later. There's no excuse for going out of one's way to deliberately provide misinformation -- do not be fooled into thinking that krokhin is some poor defenseless inquirer who got blindsided by some savage bastard who thinks he's the next Einstein.

[Edited by - taby on February 17, 2010 12:36:07 PM]

Quote: Original post by taby
The covert antagonism from hodgman ... was uncalled for, and I dealt with it rather well, considering everything. ... let me make it clear that the indignation was pointed directly at hodgman ...

Wait, what??

You were getting all defensive at Krokhin's questions, as if they were some kind of attack on you, and in a huff said "don't waste my time by asking questions you already know the answer to ... don't be surprised when I fail to respond".
As an obvious joke in response to this tension, I replied "How much is a cheeseburger?", which to my surprise you did respond to with a joke of your own.

Now you're somehow pissed at me for antagonising you throughout the entire thread, based on that one joke??

My only other post in this thread is trying to further explain entropy/2nd-law-of-thermodynamics thing to mikeman (which you misinterpreted as something about multiverses), and asking if anyone knows why the big-bang didn't collapse into a black hole.

[edit]
Looking back over this thread, I've just noticed that when you started to feel that Krokhin was antagonising you, you'd already somehow dragged me into it in your mind - I didn't notice this edited text before: "Perhaps you and hodgman can work together as a team to write up a nice little email to a physicist asking about [the frozen black hole thing] ... Don't forget to frame the question in the context of Kruskal coordinates."
What the hell?! What does asking why the big-bang didn't collapse have to do with Krokhin's question about relativity within black holes? I never even asked you any questions directly! Defensive much??

This is ridiculous. Everyone knows the world sits on the back of a giant turtle, and that turtle stands on another turtle, and it's turtles all the way down. Or can anyone prove the universe ISNT recursive turtles?

Quote: Original post by The Senshi
This is ridiculous. Everyone knows the world sits on the back of a giant turtle, and that turtle stands on another turtle, and it's turtles all the way down. Or can anyone prove the universe ISNT recursive turtles?

I know I can't.

Quote: Original post by The Senshi
This is ridiculous. Everyone knows the world sits on the back of a giant turtle, and that turtle stands on another turtle, and it's turtles all the way down. Or can anyone prove the universe ISNT recursive turtles?

Just to make a small correction here, the universe is what is sitting on the back of a giant turtle. Obviously the planet Earth is not, because we have been to Antarctica and you can't see one from there even if you stand right at the south pole.

Quote: Original post by SHilbert

Quote: Original post by The Senshi
This is ridiculous. Everyone knows the world sits on the back of a giant turtle, and that turtle stands on another turtle, and it's turtles all the way down. Or can anyone prove the universe ISNT recursive turtles?

Just to make a small correction here, the universe is what is sitting on the back of a giant turtle. Obviously the planet Earth is not, because we have been to Antarctica and you can't see one from there even if you stand right at the south pole.

Oh, right, because you've personally been to antarctica? Right?

Well, if you HAD been, I think you'd have seen the large blue turtle shell.

Quote: Original post by Hodgman

Quote: Original post by taby
The covert antagonism from hodgman ... was uncalled for, and I dealt with it rather well, considering everything. ... let me make it clear that the indignation was pointed directly at hodgman ...

Wait, what??

You were getting all defensive at Krokhin's questions, as if they were some kind of attack on you, and in a huff said "don't waste my time by asking questions you already know the answer to ... don't be surprised when I fail to respond".
As an obvious joke in response to this tension, I replied "How much is a cheeseburger?", which to my surprise you did respond to with a joke of your own.

Now you're somehow pissed at me for antagonising you throughout the entire thread, based on that one joke??

My only other post in this thread is trying to further explain entropy/2nd-law-of-thermodynamics thing to mikeman (which you misinterpreted as something about multiverses), and asking if anyone knows why the big-bang didn't collapse into a black hole.

[edit]
Looking back over this thread, I've just noticed that when you started to feel that Krokhin was antagonising you, you'd already somehow dragged me into it in your mind - I didn't notice this edited text before: "Perhaps you and hodgman can work together as a team to write up a nice little email to a physicist asking about [the frozen black hole thing] ... Don't forget to frame the question in the context of Kruskal coordinates."
What the hell?! What does asking why the big-bang didn't collapse have to do with Krokhin's question about relativity within black holes? I never even asked you any questions directly! Defensive much??

I'm sorry hodgman. I've obviously misinterpreted your posts as hostile, and now I see that I shouldn't have.

Please try to understand it from my point of view, to see where I ran into the mistake: I had assumed that since you knew enough about physics to know about entropy, isolated systems, and the multiverse (what else would a non-isolated "uni"verse be part of?), that you'd probably know how to perform a google search for the answer to your question about the energy density just after the Big Bang. I literally found it by typing "universe density big bang collapse black hole" into google. Since you're obviously not a stupid person (seriously), I had assume malice. Apparently Hanlon's razor is not perfect, and there are some cases where neither stupidity nor malice are involved. :(

In this case, yes, I was being oversensitive. Please accept my apology.

Quote: Original post by The Senshi

Quote: Original post by SHilbert

Quote: Original post by The Senshi
This is ridiculous. Everyone knows the world sits on the back of a giant turtle, and that turtle stands on another turtle, and it's turtles all the way down. Or can anyone prove the universe ISNT recursive turtles?

Just to make a small correction here, the universe is what is sitting on the back of a giant turtle. Obviously the planet Earth is not, because we have been to Antarctica and you can't see one from there even if you stand right at the south pole.

Oh, right, because you've personally been to antarctica? Right?

Well, if you HAD been, I think you'd have seen the large blue turtle shell.

Who are you to say where I have and have not been? Do you know me? I am absolutely shocked at the closed-mindedness of people on the Internet these days.

Also, Galileo proved that the color of the Great Cosmic Turtle's Shell is actually brown. This was demonstrated by his observations of the phases of Venus in 1610.

Quote: Original post by SHilbert

Quote: Original post by The Senshi

Quote: Original post by SHilbert

Quote: Original post by The Senshi
This is ridiculous. Everyone knows the world sits on the back of a giant turtle, and that turtle stands on another turtle, and it's turtles all the way down. Or can anyone prove the universe ISNT recursive turtles?

Just to make a small correction here, the universe is what is sitting on the back of a giant turtle. Obviously the planet Earth is not, because we have been to Antarctica and you can't see one from there even if you stand right at the south pole.

Oh, right, because you've personally been to antarctica? Right?

Well, if you HAD been, I think you'd have seen the large blue turtle shell.

Who are you to say where I have and have not been? Do you know me? I am absolutely shocked at the closed-mindedness of people on the Internet these days.

By acting indignant you've managed to dodge answering my question, while also making it clear that you have never been.

Quote:
Also, Galileo proved that the color of the Great Cosmic Turtle's Shell is actually brown. This was demonstrated by his observations of the phases of Venus in 1610.

Yes, we all KNOW that the GCTSH (Great Cosmic Turtle SHell) is brown -- but if you had been to antarctica you would know that it appears blue to the naked eye because of Rayleigh scattering in the troposphere. I feel like we're arguing semantics right now.