I'm currently enrolled in community college, planning to transfer and get a 4 year computer science degree. I was under the impression a CS degree would be almost essential to be a successful game programmer. About four months ago I got an "internship" (they're calling it that but what it means is that I'm just too inexperienced for them to justify hiring me yet, but once I've worked there long enough I will be hired) at a successful independent game development studio as a programmer working on their map editor. None of the programmers there have a degree, and none of them recommend getting a degree. They are all self-taught. I'm self-taught as well, as the community college I attend doesn't offer any advanced courses, and school's teaching pace is far too slow for my patience. To further complicate matters, my "internship" is unpaid. I'm not eligible for any real financial aid because my crazy parents are semi-wealthy, but I do not live with them or receive any money from them. I make enough money doing freelance iphone apps to keep myself fed and keep my car running, but I can't afford college other than the damn-near-free community college I currently attend. One last issue I have with college is the courses. I will not learn anything from the actual computer courses I don't already know, I'm only attending to get a degree so that when/if this independent game studio lays me off/gets hit by a meteor/whatever I will be able to get an interview with another game studio. Also, while the computer courses are easy for me, advanced math is not. Calculus and on will be a nightmare for me, especially when combined with the 40-50 hours a week I'm working and the freelance work I do on top of that. I've made it sound like college is not an option for me, but if it really is necessary, I can and will find a way. Student loans, 4 hours of sleep a night, etc, I'm willing to do if it is the right decision. My end goal/priorities are to work in the video game industry as a programmer, which is what I'm doing right now as an intern. Making a lot of money is not as important to me as the job itself, which I am passionate about. So, to re-articulate my question, Should I: A) Forget the degree, keep working at my current job, hope that having years of experience will get me future jobs when this job eventually runs out (at the moment, there appears to be no danger of this). B) Take out student loans, lose sleep, risk my current job (I will have to cut some hours to attend classes during my normal work hours), spend the next four years getting a computer science degree. C) Get a different, less math-intensive/cheaper/and or easier degree (Business, maybe MIS, are there online colleges/degrees worth getting?). Sorry for the long-winded post. Thank you all in advance for any advice.

I had/have this same exact issue, with the same points. What I'm currently doing is taking general ed courses at my local community college, then later transfer to a bigger university for the main degree. While getting a degree in computer science may not actually teach you anything, it will help separate you from the crowd when an employer is looking through applicants. When I look at job openings for sites like Stackoverflow, Digg, or Facebook, they generally require a CS degree. However, I'm not sure how strict they are with enforcing this requirement. Personally, I would love to be able to skip school. I would rather get to work, and learn everything on the job than spending four years of mostly useless studying.

Hello Phlo, you wrote:
>1. Do I need a degree?
>2. So, to re-articulate my question, Should I:
>A) Forget the degree, keep working at my current job, hope that having years of experience will get me future jobs when this job eventually runs out (at the moment, there appears to be no danger of this).
>B) Take out student loans, lose sleep, risk my current job (I will have to cut some hours to attend classes during my normal work hours), spend the next four years getting a computer science degree.
>C) Get a different, less math-intensive/cheaper/and or easier degree (Business, maybe MIS, are there online colleges/degrees worth getting?).

1. YES. YOU NEED A DEGREE.

2. YOU SHOULD GET A 4-YEAR DEGREE. The details you can work out based on your best judgment and your life circumstances.

But don't take my word for it. In the thread "Am I doing the right things to get into the industry" on this forum, see the wise words written by "MadApples" if you want a second opinion.

If you are having trouble making this important decision, maybe my article on Decision Grids will be helpful.
http://www.sloperama.com/advice/m70.htm

Quote: Original post by Phlogiston
I was under the impression a CS degree would be almost essential to be a successful game programmer.

Not exactly. A degree (of any sort really) is almost essential to get hired. Success depends on a lot more things.

Quote: About four months ago I got an "internship" (they're calling it that but what it means is that I'm just too inexperienced for them to justify hiring me yet, but once I've worked there long enough I will be hired)

No, what it means is that they get a decent developer for free. If you kick ass and take names they might think about paying you a below average salary since most people take the first offer they get.

Quote:
None of the programmers there have a degree, and none of them recommend getting a degree. They are all self-taught.

I do not have a degree and am self taught. Get a degree.

Quote:
I'm self-taught as well, as the community college I attend doesn't offer any advanced courses, and school's teaching pace is far too slow for my patience.

Of course. Community college sucks.

Quote:
So, to re-articulate my question, Should I:
A) Forget the degree, keep working at my current job, hope that having years of experience will get me future jobs when this job eventually runs out (at the moment, there appears to be no danger of this).

Independent game studios are always in danger of failure. Unpaid internships are always in danger of failure (or at least indefinite unpaid status).

Quote:
B) Take out student loans, lose sleep, risk my current job (I will have to cut some hours to attend classes during my normal work hours), spend the next four years getting a computer science degree.

You also might be able to test out of some classes or apply your internship towards college credits.

Quote:
C) Get a different, less math-intensive/cheaper/and or easier degree (Business, maybe MIS, are there online colleges/degrees worth getting?).

Calculus isn't that hard. Some reputable colleges offer full-online education, though it is of course worse for you than attending classes.


My advice is to get a degree. No degree will get your resume an auto-reject by the majority of HR departments in the country, regardless of how much skill or practical experience (under 5-8 years or so) you have.

Thank you for the well-explained advice Teslastyn. You've convinced me. CS degree, here I come.

Quote: Original post by Phlogiston
...None of the programmers there have a degree, and none of them recommend getting a degree.

Given none of them have a degree they are therefore unqualified to discuss the value of a degree.

Stick with your new plan to get a degree and forget this idea of working cheaply at a job that others are getting well paid at. A few years of letting yourself be undervalued will result in you hating the industry and leaving. Do a job you enjoy and make sure you get paid properly for it and you will enjoy it a lot more.

If it later turns out you want to move on then having a degree will be a massive help.

Quote: Original post by Phlogiston
I'm currently enrolled in community college, planning to transfer and get a 4 year computer science degree. I was under the impression a CS degree would be almost essential to be a successful game programmer. About four months ago I got an "internship" (they're calling it that but what it means is that I'm just too inexperienced for them to justify hiring me yet, but once I've worked there long enough I will be hired) at a successful independent game development studio as a programmer working on their map editor.

As Telastyn noted, this means they get free work from you, at low risk to themselves, both financially and in terms of whether or not they have to keep you (it's a lot easier to dispose of an unpaid intern than a full employee in most places). If they aren't willing to pay you a fair market salary then I wouldn't rely on them for job security -- especially not in today's economic climate.

Quote: Original post by Phlogiston
None of the programmers there have a degree, and none of them recommend getting a degree. They are all self-taught.

Telastyn beat me to this one as well, but just in case you need an extra data point: I am also self-taught, and have no formal educational qualifications (yes, that means I have no high school diploma or GED).

Get a degree.

Quote: Original post by Phlogiston
I'm self-taught as well, as the community college I attend doesn't offer any advanced courses, and school's teaching pace is far too slow for my patience.

Chances are you will never find a teaching pace that 100% suits you. Accepting that and learning to deal with it is an important part of the college education experience. In fact, that's part of what a degree proves to prospective employers: that you can put up with suboptimal conditions (from your own perspective) and still get work done.

I took some formal CS courses and hated them. I learned nothing from them. They were - and are - still beneficial.

Quote: Original post by Phlogiston
One last issue I have with college is the courses. I will not learn anything from the actual computer courses I don't already know, I'm only attending to get a degree so that when/if this independent game studio lays me off/gets hit by a meteor/whatever I will be able to get an interview with another game studio. Also, while the computer courses are easy for me, advanced math is not. Calculus and on will be a nightmare for me, especially when combined with the 40-50 hours a week I'm working and the freelance work I do on top of that.

Don't be so sure that you won't learn anything [smile] There's a lot of esoteric stuff in the areas of algorithms and formal reasoning that is not really learned by most self-taught programmers, but can be incredibly beneficial to study. For instance, things like time and space complexity analysis are fundamentals of CS, but many self-taught people have a subpar grasp of how to work with them. There's more in the upper level courses as well that would be good to know.

Now, a very small segment of the population can just buy the textbooks and learn that stuff themselves, so I'm not saying it's impossible to know more advanced CS subjects without a classroom environment to study in. But for the vast majority of people, that environment is crucial.

In any case, it's not just the CS material itself that is valuable in a degree; it's the combination of proving your dedication and reliability (getting a degree is not easy and requires work) as well as rounding out your overall education (in your case, learning calculus will help you immensely in doing non-trivial work in games programming).

Quote: Original post by Phlogiston
I've made it sound like college is not an option for me, but if it really is necessary, I can and will find a way. Student loans, 4 hours of sleep a night, etc, I'm willing to do if it is the right decision.

Good! You've already posted that you're making this decision, which is a great step. Being willing to make sacrifices and do the hard (but right) thing is a very important trait. Keep up that attitude and you can go far.


Best of luck, and stick with it; accomplishing your goals is extremely rewarding and well worth the unpleasantness that inevitably occurs along the way.

Again, thank you all for the in-depth advice. I never expected I would receive such well-articulated and honest responses from veterans of the industry. I'm meeting with a college counselor tomorrow to work out the details of transferring to a four year college once I finish my current classes at the community college.

See if you can postpone your degree as others have said. Its not really uncommon here to do 2 years of a degree, work for a year (paid or otherwise) and then do a final year. In fact alot of employers would rather hire someone like that over hiring someone who just did 3 years straight.

Whatever you do, don't completly drop out and give up on the degree. If this company is intending to pay you then go for it, save up and finish your degree later on. While its not impossible to get a job without a degree it will certainly help if you ever need to find another job elsewhere.

You've got a good oppotunity here, I would definatly take the job but no way would I givve up on the degree. Also maths is pretty important, after a year working perhaps your outlook on things will have changed and you'll be fine with the degree.

Get a degree.

But here is some more (unsolicited) advice that you might want to consider. What you get out of your degree is proportional to what you put into it. Actually that's pretty much true of your internship and, heck, life.

You say that you are just doing the degree to get the qualification. There's nothing wrong with that. But having that attitude is going to make getting the degree a real chore. Ok, so you know a lot of the stuff they are teaching you. Great! But what about the stuff that your teachers are not mentioning in class? Try to go beyond the course. All courses are limited by the resources available to the school. If you keep looking beyond, questioning, pushing you are going to find stuff that you don't understand. You may find that you're doing something that is not just a stepping-stone to something else, but something you actually enjoy.

You are more likely to succeed in life through your attitude than through a degree. You're young, you have awesome potential, go and make the most of it!