Hello everyone! In my game concept (only on paper) I want to incorporate a system that resembles our "Stock Market" or just a "Stock Market". Something that almost works like it really works, something that almost resembles the Stock Market Exchange our world uses. A. The thing is, I dont fully understand the whole concept and idea of the real workings of a Stock Market, I only understand it to a certain degree. If im correct its all empty air, you buy stocks of a certain company whos value is determined by the illusion of their performance as a company, therefore people buy or sell Stocks of that company and then that company rises or falls in worth. That is the first point I would love to be corrected and informed about, how much of what I think I know on this topic is correct? B. When A. is more clear for me, thanks to you, I want to tell you what I wanted to do different. But if this is in fact different depends on the outcome of A. In my game concept I want "Stocks" or what ever I am going to call them to be more based on "real" things, not just assumptions, make it less like gambling is what I mean, just a bit less. I was thinking, just giving examples here, you have real products that really exist in a physical way as well. I do understand Companys exist as well and are very physical, but still. This would be more simple, the worth of a product's Stock Value would be based on how much that product is bougt/sold in my game world. For example you would have mundane things like Wheat, or Coffee, or Beans, or what ever, how much these products go around and are used in my game world the more their value would raise. So when a rumor would go around that Wheat would be in more demand soon because a certain company is going to manufacture a product that would get high demands and that needs a lot of Wheat, people would go buy more of that Stock and etc. I do understand that this is already the way it works, almost then. But what I am trying to do is make it more easy to understand for people that have no clue about "Stocks" "Shares" "Short-Term" the "Long-Term" and such. And by making Stocks about normal real physical products this could be one way to achieves this and maybe in the minds of more regular people like me it would make more sense, and thus more fun? Am I thinking logically or is this exactly the same as our current Stock Market already? I would espescially love input and new ideas about this point if possible?! Other ideas I had is to not have to many stocks depending on the choice of the player this could be anywhere from 10 to 30 stocks or so? And also I am thinking of a logical place to put this stock system in, like some kind of semi fantasy or way back time and place and the setting would be some kind of central trading harbor hub/city, to also make it more accessible. And that is the key word here, accesability (not like this wall of text :). I hope this made any sense, and that it isn't to much to read for everyone, I would love inuput and brainstorming sessions on this topic, thanks in advance!

I think part of the problem is that the stock market has been corrupted from what it really is and should be. An easy method to invest in companies.

In part the stock market often is just "Empty air", and this is what has made it dangerous and is where most of the corruption comes from. The point of the stock market is to allow companies to say "Here at X number of 'tokens', they represent our company that is currently valued at Y, and we have Z plans for the future. Invest in this company so we can make Z plans come true, and greatly increase the value of Y, and later we will or someone else can buy back your tokens so we all can profit!"

Getting a larger slice of pie is often viewed as a competetive, zero-sum game. But I notice something hardly ever mentioned: That's only true when there ain't enough pie to go around. Furthermore, when there isn't enough pie, industrious folks set about making more pie until the squabble factor bottoms out. It's where jobs come from. The market dynamically self-corrects until everyone has enough pie.

Might even say that the current value of the pie market is the missing amount that would satisfy everyone's appetite.

[Edited by - AngleWyrm on December 19, 2009 7:49:22 PM]

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Original post by theonemanbandman A. The thing is, I dont fully understand the whole concept and idea of the real workings of a Stock Market, I only understand it to a certain degree. If im correct its all empty air, you buy stocks of a certain company whos value is determined by the illusion of their performance as a company, therefore people buy or sell Stocks of that company and then that company rises or falls in worth. That is the first point I would love to be corrected and informed about, how much of what I think I know on this topic is correct?

Not quite. When you buy a stock you are buying part of that company. The value of the stock is what someone is willing to pay for it. The profits of the company are divided between its owners, usually on a yearly or twice yearly basis. You get a dividend which is a share of the profit proportional to the amount of the company you own. Obviously if a company is doing well it should have higher dividends than if it is doing badly. This means that more people will want to own part of that company and hence they will be willing to pay more for it. In practice a lot of people buy stocks which they expect to increase in price, rather than return a good long-trem profit.

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B. When A. is more clear for me, thanks to you, I want to tell you what I wanted to do different. But if this is in fact different depends on the outcome of A. In my game concept I want "Stocks" or what ever I am going to call them to be more based on "real" things, not just assumptions, make it less like gambling is what I mean, just a bit less. I was thinking, just giving examples here, you have real products that really exist in a physical way as well. I do understand Companys exist as well and are very physical, but still. This would be more simple, the worth of a product's Stock Value would be based on how much that product is bougt/sold in my game world. For example you would have mundane things like Wheat, or Coffee, or Beans, or what ever, how much these products go around and are used in my game world the more their value would raise. So when a rumor would go around that Wheat would be in more demand soon because a certain company is going to manufacture a product that would get high demands and that needs a lot of Wheat, people would go buy more of that Stock and etc.

This is very similar to a commodities market, it might help you to look into these.

Quote:

Other ideas I had is to not have to many stocks depending on the choice of the player this could be anywhere from 10 to 30 stocks or so? And also I am thinking of a logical place to put this stock system in, like some kind of semi fantasy or way back time and place and the setting would be some kind of central trading harbor hub/city, to also make it more accessible. And that is the key word here, accesability (not like this wall of text :). I hope this made any sense, and that it isn't to much to read for everyone, I would love inuput and brainstorming sessions on this topic, thanks in advance!

Based on Niall Ferguson's "The Ascent of Money" the first publicly owned joint stock company was the United Dutch Chartered East India Company, which was chartered in 1602. This naturally led to an impromptu stock market dealing solely in shares of this company (as no other company had shares at this point).

I've always thought the concept of financial systems in games is an interesting one, but never got around to doing anything about it.

Finally, I should point out that I am not a finance expert and whilst the information above should be enough to get started developing a game mechanic I would not advise anyone to consider it when making actual investments.

If you want to implement this into your game,
I think some research on this subject would really
help. And it is at least some what useful in real
life, unlike space ship energy distribution or
building security in level design.

The basics are really not that complicated and quite
interesting too.

Gameplay wise I think it would be nice to integrate
the stock/commodity market into the story:
Like anywhere else, when enough people overextend themselves,
get greedy or just get foolish, something bad happens sooner or
later. And such an event would be a nice plot element in the story.

For inspirations I would try some history books, e.g. the south-sea bubble
"sober nations have all at once become desperate gamblers, and risked almost
their existence upon the turn of a piece of paper"

Have fun developing your game!

Quote:

Original post by Talroth I think part of the problem is that the stock market has been corrupted from what it really is and should be. An easy method to invest in companies. In part the stock market often is just "Empty air", and this is what has made it dangerous and is where most of the corruption comes from. The point of the stock market is to allow companies to say "Here at X number of 'tokens', they represent our company that is currently valued at Y, and we have Z plans for the future. Invest in this company so we can make Z plans come true, and greatly increase the value of Y, and later we will or someone else can buy back your tokens so we all can profit!"

Yeah good point, this is exactly what I was adressing and why like Tim said I think I am going to base my system more on some type of commodities market. I want it to be real, and about real things/products and have more real physical value that the current Stock Market system envisions.
Back to the roots of it all.

I really want a commodity to rise in value because factors X (buy/sell ratio/physical amounts) really did something to change this value of product Y.

Thanks for your reply!

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Original post by AngleWyrm Getting a larger slice of pie is often viewed as a competetive, zero-sum game. But I notice something hardly ever mentioned: That's only true when there ain't enough pie to go around. Furthermore, when there isn't enough pie, industrious folks set about making more pie until the squabble factor bottoms out. It's where jobs come from. The market dynamically self-corrects until everyone has enough pie. Might even say that the current value of the pie market is the missing amount that would satisfy everyone's appetite.

I cant exactly grasp what you are really saying here, because English isn't my native language, but I'll do my best, so bare with me haha. What you are saying it that when I incorporate this, I should have a lot of pie for everyone to eat haha. So I have to balance my commodities so every person or group of people has and can have their piece of pie because there is a lot of it?

My concept wont go way deep, it will be a bare boned small city hub built around the commodities market and its people, so real jobs wont be a thing the player has to account for, early in that is. Deeper in my concept I want real jobs and their output to really account for a certain commodities worth going up or down, but I do think this will be really really hard to code though.

Also , thanks for your reply!

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Original post by Tim Ingham-Dempster Quote: Original post by theonemanbandman A. The thing is, I dont fully understand the whole concept and idea of the real workings of a Stock Market, I only understand it to a certain degree. If im correct its all empty air, you buy stocks of a certain company whos value is determined by the illusion of their performance as a company, therefore people buy or sell Stocks of that company and then that company rises or falls in worth. That is the first point I would love to be corrected and informed about, how much of what I think I know on this topic is correct? Not quite. When you buy a stock you are buying part of that company. The value of the stock is what someone is willing to pay for it. The profits of the company are divided between its owners, usually on a yearly or twice yearly basis. You get a dividend which is a share of the profit proportional to the amount of the company you own. Obviously if a company is doing well it should have higher dividends than if it is doing badly. This means that more people will want to own part of that company and hence they will be willing to pay more for it. In practice a lot of people buy stocks which they expect to increase in price, rather than return a good long-trem profit. Quote: B. When A. is more clear for me, thanks to you, I want to tell you what I wanted to do different. But if this is in fact different depends on the outcome of A. In my game concept I want "Stocks" or what ever I am going to call them to be more based on "real" things, not just assumptions, make it less like gambling is what I mean, just a bit less. I was thinking, just giving examples here, you have real products that really exist in a physical way as well. I do understand Companys exist as well and are very physical, but still. This would be more simple, the worth of a product's Stock Value would be based on how much that product is bougt/sold in my game world. For example you would have mundane things like Wheat, or Coffee, or Beans, or what ever, how much these products go around and are used in my game world the more their value would raise. So when a rumor would go around that Wheat would be in more demand soon because a certain company is going to manufacture a product that would get high demands and that needs a lot of Wheat, people would go buy more of that Stock and etc. This is very similar to a commodities market, it might help you to look into these. Quote: Other ideas I had is to not have to many stocks depending on the choice of the player this could be anywhere from 10 to 30 stocks or so? And also I am thinking of a logical place to put this stock system in, like some kind of semi fantasy or way back time and place and the setting would be some kind of central trading harbor hub/city, to also make it more accessible. And that is the key word here, accesability (not like this wall of text :). I hope this made any sense, and that it isn't to much to read for everyone, I would love inuput and brainstorming sessions on this topic, thanks in advance! Based on Niall Ferguson's "The Ascent of Money" the first publicly owned joint stock company was the United Dutch Chartered East India Company, which was chartered in 1602. This naturally led to an impromptu stock market dealing solely in shares of this company (as no other company had shares at this point). I've always thought the concept of financial systems in games is an interesting one, but never got around to doing anything about it. Finally, I should point out that I am not a finance expert and whilst the information above should be enough to get started developing a game mechanic I would not advise anyone to consider it when making actual investments.

I love your idea to make it more centered around the Commodities market, I looked it up some and it seemed much more fun, tangible and physically real. I dont grasp the concept of it all yet, so I do have to do a lot more research but its a great point to start at!

Another great thing you mentioned is that the East India Company was the first company to enact a stock market system and was the only Company you could buy stocks from. Even worse is that the fact is I live in the Netherlands myself and never knew this. Maybe it is interesting to use this as a backdrop/setting, on the other hand this has been done to death, any comments on that?

And thanks for your indepth explanation about the Stock Market and how it really works, I see that much clearer now. And now I know what I know, I know that I dont want to build my concept around a system like that, it sucks the fun out of it, and it does not serve the reasons and goals I hoped it would, so I will use the Commodities market as a startpoint, go from there, and change things here and there to fit the setting and theme a bit more.

Thanks for your reply!

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Original post by sitwind If you want to implement this into your game, I think some research on this subject would really help. And it is at least some what useful in real life, unlike space ship energy distribution or building security in level design. The basics are really not that complicated and quite interesting too. Gameplay wise I think it would be nice to integrate the stock/commodity market into the story: Like anywhere else, when enough people overextend themselves, get greedy or just get foolish, something bad happens sooner or later. And such an event would be a nice plot element in the story. For inspirations I would try some history books, e.g. the south-sea bubble "sober nations have all at once become desperate gamblers, and risked almost their existence upon the turn of a piece of paper" Have fun developing your game!

Another good point. That was what I was thinking incorporating, albeit light, story elements into the game that interconnects with the main game mechanic (the commdities market, wealth, lack off wealth etc. Your on the same track exactly, the underdog that gains it all, then looses it all again, to be remembered what life really is all about.

And mucho thanks for the tips about that period of time, it will be perfect to do my research on stories like that, it sounds perfect. Another thing I would not know or think off, thanks!

My idea was to wrap it all in a light story, and present it in a lite pixar/disney kind of way, not to cartoony in the presentation but not to grim and realistic as well, but a potent mixture of both.

Thanks for your reply!

I do think a game based on a stock market could be fun, but if you prefer the commidity direction then go for it, there is certainly as much potential and it is easier for players to grasp.

As to a setting, I think you need to consider the type of game you want. Will prices be standardised across the whole world or will different cities have different prices for various goods? If the price is standardised then it needs to be set somewhere where communications technology allows this, equally if they are not then it should be somewhere where its not possible to standardise prices for some reason.

Quote:

I do think a game based on a stock market could be fun, but if you prefer the commidity direction then go for it, there is certainly as much potential and it is easier for players to grasp. As to a setting, I think you need to consider the type of game you want. Will prices be standardised across the whole world or will different cities have different prices for various goods? If the price is standardised then it needs to be set somewhere where communications technology allows this, equally if they are not then it should be somewhere where its not possible to standardise prices for some reason.

Yeah I do to, it was the initial idea, espescially after playing the boardgame Hab und Gut, it seemed really feasible. But in that game you are buying and selling to make profits with Stocks for you Clients not really for yourself.

Well the setting will be very small, it will foremost service the game mechanic, it will be a small rural town where litterally everything happens, to keep things simpler and easier to grasp.

There will be some shops in that town, who produce certain goods using the Commodities from the Market and that will decide how high or low a value a certain Commodity will get.

So prices will be local I guess if that is what you mean?

I envisioned it so, so that everything that happends commercially wise could directly be reflected on the Commodities Market, and would be the only factor to influence that as well, also for easier understanding.

You have certain options as an inahbitant of that town, and you are set out with a small bundle of cash because of a certain history to make your fortune on the Commodities Market.

And you do this by analyzing the current market, trends and such, and buying information from the local family consisting of a man and wife who are very old and sit on a bench the whole day and know litteraly everything, just from a different angle.

They also have a grandson who lives with them but he is not so good natured as them but more of a streetwise little pocket thief/scoundrel, who gets information for you through less legal means(you choose paths here good/lesser good). This family is your information hub on everything that happens and also your way to throw some rumors in the town to put other buyers or sellers on the wrong path through misinformation and such.

Hey, if possible try to play the game "Capitalism 2" it is one of the best business game I played.

It touches topics discussed here, like stock markets (including IPO, distribution of new shares, share buy backs, etc), commodities (can buy raw materials and process them into something else), manufacturing (conversion of silicon to computer chips and computer chips with plastics into a computer), retail (specialised shops vs departmental stores), branding... etc

Basically it is as real as it gets to simulating a real world business. You can play through it and see whether the implementation suits you.