Quote: You need to have a physical office...see if its sufficently secure

Hm, we'll look into that then. Programmer may have been fed false information, but we were led to believe it's not a big deal and that publishers can help us out. Otherwise it's a bit of a paradox when it comes to indies finding publishers. Seems impossible, even if you make the best game ever.

Quote: your team has no other professional experience

That's true professionally, but we do have a lot to show from previous developments, hopefully it's in some small way a redeeming factor.

Quote: going to need a playable demo

We certainly have one ready to send out, as part of our proposal. We decided at the beginning to do as much development as possible before approaching publishers.

Hi Deim, you wrote:

>you've misunderstood some things.

Yes, apparently so.

>Did you mean to say in general "IF you always exaggerate...", because I'm not aware I've exaggerated anything.

You said the NDA process would "take ages." I was making a small joke. You can safely ignore it.

>I've already stated the game is playable at 99.9% complete. The line you quoted from me was reference to initial contact.

Sorry I missed that part. If you have a 99.9% complete game, you should NOT send a non-interactive video only. It's OK to have a video, but you have to submit the whole thing lest they think the game doesn't exist yet.

>This is one of the issues, we're not a business

Then you have to become one.

> should I be taking care of these matters (which and to what degree) _before_ making an official pitch,

Yes. That's what I said.

>or propose and hope that a publisher can meet us half-way and help us take care of these things?

No. They don't want to deal with non-bonafide non-businesses. I still recommend you read all those links I pointed you to before. Sorry this forum is not friendly for posting of URLs. You have to copy and paste to visit those web pages.

Quote: Original post by Deimos72
Myself and an online friend have been making this game for a console and are almost done.

It would be helpful if you clarified what system it is for - there is certainly no reason to keep that information secret and you will get a lot better information if you tell us.

Quote: But in the meantime we do actually have a game ready to pitch, and time is marching on. How can we know if we're ready to make this approach?

Read this http://www.obscure.co.uk/articles-2/the-video-game-acquisitions-process/ to better understand the process you are embarking on.

Quote: In all honesty, we really hope a publisher will help us get to this point and help us make everything proper, give us some advance to obtain certain things like proper copyrights, help us get registered as a business and up to scratch with everything. We have a "proposal" document we will share with publishers that explains our situation and how we'd like them to help us, trying to be honest and hoping that won't be our downfall. Are these realistic hopes? or should we take out loans, borrow cash and invest in taking care of these things before pitching?

Bin your proposal because they won't help you - that is your job not theirs - it is your business after all. In fact if you walk in and start asking for basic help they are likely you rub their hands with glee and fleece you.
Rule #1 - never take advice from the other party in a business deal. Their responsibility is to get the best deal for themselves, not to help you get the best deal you can.

Quote: What we will pitch initially is very basic plot and gameplay info, a video, screenshots and feature list. Once publishers see the "pitch" and should we have requests for our full "proposal" and playable demo, then we would definitely consider registering copyrights, talking to a lawyer and investing in a proper company for ourselves.

Would this be a sufficient happy-medium approach, at this point of the pitch

If you went into a shop to buy shoes and the staff brought you a nice description of the shoes you asked about would you buy the shoes? Most likely you would send them away to bring you the actual shoes or possibly walk out in disgust. No publisher will sign a game without seeing a demo first - many won't even review your proposal unless it has a demo. Many will write back and ask for a demo but some may just bin your submission and focus on the many many other proposals they have that sent a demo.
rule #2 = never make it needlessly complicated for the publisher to sign your game.

Quote: Original post by Deimos72
3. I trust my associate with my life, so I'm sure whatever legal agreements we need to manifest will be no problem. The question is, do we need to ensure the publishers of such agreements and in what form?

I hang out in a business forum and the 2nd most common topic (after "what sort of business should I set up to make money") is "my friend just ripped me off.... oh and we have nothing in writing".

When you sign a publishing deal you are required to warrant that you have the necessary rights to sign the deal. You won't be able to do that without an agreement that defines ownership of copyright etc.

Quote: 4. Another tricky question. We have 1 "NDA" from a publisher and I've read over it numerous times, it merely states a bunch of obvious things like "no business relationship exists, you can't sue us for a damn thing, if we don't publish your game then go away", etc. but it also says a lot of reassuring stuff too. Such a contract I'm more than happy to sign and fax away to them. Another type of "NDA" might state that we can't share our pitch with any other publisher, right? So "NDA" is a tricky and subjective term to throw around, it could imply many differing serious legal factors, subjective to the document itself. But if they are all like the one I've read so far, then wonderful.

The question is so tricky that I couldn't actually find it in that statement.

Quote: 5. We can't self-publish on this particular console.

It is possible to self-publish on every console if you do things right and have the resources.

Quote: .....should I be taking care of these matters (which and to what degree) _before_ making an official pitch, or propose and hope that a publisher can meet us half-way and help us take care of these things? (keeping in mind our game is a> 99% done/playable & b> pretty good!)

You need a collaboration agreement before you send the proper pitch. I don't care how much you trust your friend it is just dumb to proceed without one. It's easy to get agreement over this stuff when your product is worthless but amazing how quickly cracks start to appear at the slightest hint that there may be money involved. People suddenly decide that what you think the agreement is differs from their understanding or that their contribution is more important to the project than yours. With nothing in writing things quickly go off yhe rails.

You don't need to be a registered company to send the pitch but you will need to be a company to sign a publishing deal and get the game accepted by the console company.

What you certainly should not do is rely on the publisher to help you.

Good advice. I'm contacting a couple of publishers about these issues now to hear it straight from them. We'll look into copyrighting and agreements, and making it easier for the publisher to access the proposal and demo online straight from the intial pitch without requiring them to contact us, and see how we go because that's probably the best we can do.

The truth is unpaid indies for the most part don't make console games. Even like the Wiiware only games are usually from teams with proven track records of putting out complete games. Consoles are a different beast that they try and keep crap games to a minimum. A passable PC game won't make the cut for a console (I know from experience).

A publisher can help you get a devkit or maybe even loan you a spare one. But if they are loaning you one then they are responsible for it if something happens. So you can bet they aren't going to want to give one to random people on the internet that have no accountability. This still means you probably need an office.

We don't know what your game is so maybe it will blow people away and you will get a console deal. But you should be prepared for the fact there is probably a 90% chance the game is turned down. Publishers are getting submissions all the time. You should be prepared to be able to port the game to PC or Mac. Unless it is a Wii game if the game would play well on a console then it will play well on a computer. If you can prove you have a successful game on your hands then a publisher will be more likely to deal with you. The plus side is you can make some money to get a proper business setup as well.

I ask again, what console is it for? Telling us the intended platform isn't giving away any secrets of the game. If the game was created on a black market/pirated version of some SDK you might not get any response no matter how good it is. If its a homebrew setup then I wouldn't think there would be an issue.

Thanks to everyone for all the insight, we've really appreciated the discussion. We feel much more informed and better prepared now, and while we realise we still have some serious obstacles on the business side of things, no matter how it's looked at, I'd like to share some e-mails from publisher contacts that will help explain our current perceptions. They've been edited for obvious confidentiality reasons, and they are both from fairly well-know companies you would have heard of:-

This is one of several that shows eagerness from a publisher to accept and consider unsolicited web-based (e-mail) "pitches", no NDA:-

Quote: Hi,
I’m the person you need to speak to. Please email me with all the information about the game and the team (4mb limit for attachments)
Kind regards,
####.

> Dear [publisher], we would like the opportunity to pitch our [genre] game
> project for [platform] to you.
> Do you have contact information specifically for independent developers
> to pitch their game projects? Thanks.

And this is one I sent to a friendly publisher manager after realising the concerns:-

Quote: I can’t answer your questions sorry. Every circumstance is different but nothing is impossible

> Before we pitch our project, I'd like to ask a few questions in order for
> us to be better prepared.
> We are currently not a legitimate business, can we become one only after
> discovering our publication potential?
> Regarding the official development kit, should we have trouble obtaining
> one from #### is it possible a publisher like yourself might help us make
> contact with #### to obtain one?
> Thank you so much again for your time.

I know "nothing is impossible" is a vague response, and I could have well asked "can I fly, grandpa, can I fly?" and gotten the same generic response, but these e-mails lead us to believe that things aren't necessarily always SO difficult and beaurocratic, even though surely they usually are, there is definite hope for us. Negotiations and compromises can be made.

But, should I be worried by such responses, too eager and friendly? Are these companies only out to somehow screw little developers like us over in this deceitful way? Or is it true that anything really is possible? They obviously take the time to be friendly and reply directly to us, quickly, despite knowing we're independent developers. Why would they waste their time on us, even in this small way? This is what I don't get.

On one hand the publishers themselves are practically saying "just go for it" (at least that's our perception so far), but on the other hand are told we need to spend a lot money establishing a business, office, trademarks and hiring lawyers before even trying to pitch and discover any potential. Both conflicting yet real perspectives with definite risks and downsides, either way. This is all still really confusing, what are we to believe.

If life experience has taught me anything it's that truly "nothing is impossible" because truly "every cicumstance is different". Or maybe it's all some big practical joke and our e-mail account has been hijacked by hackers. :S

"deimos," you wrote:
>should I be worried by such responses, too eager and friendly?
>Are these companies only out to somehow screw little developers like us over in this deceitful way?
>They obviously take the time to be friendly and reply directly to us, quickly, despite knowing we're independent developers. Why would they waste their time on us, even in this small way? This is what I don't get.

The submissions manager is just doing his job. Don't try to read more into it than that.
His job is to field submissions, including submissions from unknown entities, to see if there's something marketable there. Something that would add to his company's bottom line.

>On one hand the publishers themselves are practically saying "just go for it" (at least that's our perception so far), but on the other hand are told we need to spend a lot money establishing a business, office, trademarks and hiring lawyers before even trying to pitch and discover any potential. Both conflicting yet real perspectives with definite risks and downsides, either way. This is all still really confusing, what are we to believe.

We have not been lying to you. If the submission manager is ready to talk to you now, fine. Talk to him. But in the meantime you also need to be setting up your business entity, and getting a lawyer, in case the publisher does want to do a deal with you. Don't take the submission manager's friendly manner as a sign that he's your friend. In a way, he is, but his main loyalty is to his employer. Thus you need to set up your business entity and have a lawyer, if this goes forward. Those things take time, so you should be working on them now.

Telling a publisher you have no idea what you're doing, which is what that second e-mail reads as, is not a good idea. If you want to play ball, you needs to play by the rules of the game.

* You need to incorporate and become a legal entity. It isn't expensive at all.
* Within your company, you need a collaboration agreement. It saves you from a world of headache and legal issues later.
* It doesn't matter if you don't like the idea of an NDA and that you feel it will slow the process. Every professional company uses them. If you don't it just shows you don't have a clue about the business.
* Publishers like to visit from time to time. If you don't have a permanent office, I'd highly suggest you secure a nice meeting room somewhere to utilize when needs be.
* Also, the console manufacturers won't let you purchase dev kits from them unless you're a business at a physical location (ie office).

Read tsloper and Obscure's websites. Read them thoroughly, because every bit of information they contain is information publishers are going to expect you to know. Many publishers WILL bully young developers who don't know any better because they can make more money that way. It isn't personal, it's business.

[Edited by - zer0wolf on December 7, 2009 11:03:30 AM]

I was curious, so I did a little research for myself.

As far as I can tell, if I were in the OP's position it'd cost me $50 to form a domestic LLC in Arizona, USA. Seems cheap, but I can't find any evidence that it'd be more expensive unless I used some middle-man company to do the paperwork for me.

I found a PDF document from the US Copyright Office that discusses how to register for copyright on computer programs:
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ61.pdf. Here is an interesting quote:

Quote: The Copyright Office has consistently believed that a
single registration is sufficient to protect the copyright in
a computer program and related screen displays, including
videogames, without a separate registration for the screen
displays or a specific reference to them on the application for
the computer program.

They go on to say that you can register for copyright of your videogame electronically, which is nice because that is the $35 option.

For the NDA with the publisher, this one looked pretty good. The collaboration agreement/NDA for contributors would be internally developed. That could be a weakness in a future lawsuit if it is unclear in any way, so one might consult a lawyer there, but I think it could be done without legal advice.

So it'd cost me $85 to become an LLC, register copyright on my video game, and start talking with publishers. Anybody see any holes here?

That's all really nice and the problem is - I had no idea it's that cheap or easy.

I'm the lead designer/artist and I'm from Australia, I can tell you that much, a very remote part. The progammer is in Europe. Neither of us are businesspersons or lawyers, especially me. This is the main problem with establishing any kind of studio. Can't do it in some tin shed in the desert with kangaroos hopping by. We'd all need to relocate, somewhere we can recruit local talent. This is the big issue and where all our current funding would get drained, just to figure out if we stand a chance or not. If we have a chance, of course we'll establish a studio and get proper, but in the meantime we can't possibly do that.

So we've decided to do as much as we possibly can with all the advice we've received from this thread, copyrights, registering an "online business" and team agreements, etc. As part of our proposal it will state we're an "internet team"/"internet business", officially based in Kangaroo Creek, and require the finished code only be "ported" using an official development kit, because, from what I've been told, it would probably take less than 30 minutes use of the damn thing anyway! If our game has potential of being published, our proposal states we require no funding to pay for the development kit plus relocate and establish a proper business somewhere. We can pay for that ourselves and our proposal makes that very clear.

Someone suggested that we can let the pitch link directly to the full proposal, by uploading multiple versions that we can keep private and track. From the proposal we can link the publisher to a playable demo, which is also private and unique to that 1 visitor, via our own NDA they will need to click "I Agree" to and we can track and record it. If there are any leaks, we should be able to track which unique version it is.

We (/will) have everything else in check apart from those 2 issues and will have pitched by this time next week.

Thanks again, and any more advice is appreciated. Will definitely drop back in and let you guys know how we went. ;)