I don't see why a gaming 'cafe' couldn't host tournaments/pools. To me it would seem pretty simple:
-Users must play on the computers at the cafe (this would prevent users from cheating by using their own PCs).
-A user could bring mouse/keyboard of their choice to use.
-Show proof of age
-Sign any legal documents
-Pay entry fee

I would think that if you had enough of said 'cafes' across the nation/world, you could get a pretty decent turn out.

You would obviously have to charge some kind of fee in order to be able to supply powerful enough PC's to play the games.

Dunno if it would actually work, but the idea just popped into my head.

Only specific states which outright ban wagering of any sort would be affected. Most states do not ban wagering, only wagering through chance (ie gambling). Betting on skilled games would not fall in this category so would be mostly legal in the US.

Since I started playing online poker, I have often thought about how awesome this would be for video games. However, like everyone said, the cheating would be unbelievable. I guess if server-only apps were used something could be configured, but there would have to be major work done to ensure that it was safe from hacking and I'm not sure how exciting the game could be with those parameters.

If you ask me, everything would be more interesting if money was on the line. I'd like to put small wagers on chess matches, halo games, rock band performances, etc. Just to raise the bar. Even playing for cents creates vast amounts of competition as people in 3rd world countries can make decent wages relative to their environment. This is why poker has a gigantic leap in skill from free to $.01/$.02 blinds.

Quote: Original post by ChurchSkiz
Only specific states which outright ban wagering of any sort would be affected. Most states do not ban wagering, only wagering through chance (ie gambling). Betting on skilled games would not fall in this category so would be mostly legal in the US.

Not quite. It is highly variable. Some states allow one but not the other, others have the reverse. Sometimes it is legal in a state but illegal in a county. There are even some counties in gambling-friendly states that forbid gambling on Sunday, or have other weird laws.

(Looking in to similar "blue laws", did you know it is unlawful to sell cars on Sunday in several states? Colorado, Illinois, Iowa, Louisiana, Massachusetts, and others. ... Wow.)

Quote: Original post by geo2004
I don't see why a gaming 'cafe' couldn't host tournaments/pools. To me it would seem pretty simple...I would think that if you had enough of said 'cafes' across the nation/world, you could get a pretty decent turn out.

Every few months somebody tries that around here ... and they get shut down hard. There are VERY strict regulations about what is legal and what is not.

Internet cafe: Great. Internet cafe that happens to have people playing online gambling sites: Just fine. Internet cafe that crosses the line of gambling establishment: Shut down and possible jail time for the owner.

There was one recently that made the news, the owner had repeatedly opened "Internet Cafes featuring games of skill" (and had them shut down) and this time was jailed for a very long time.

Gambling has various definitions, and they vary by jurisdictions. What may be perfectly legal in once place may be unlawful in another. Sometimes they may seem contradictory, where in one place A is okay but B is not, and in the neigboring town B is legal but A is not.

Any time the player must take any action --- even as simple as pushing a "submit" button --- to get the opportunity to get ANYTHING back from the system --- it can be money, prizes, or just public recognition --- you shouold consult relavent lawyers about gambling laws.

[Edited by - frob on November 30, 2009 10:41:48 PM]

The reason I am making such a big deal about this is because gambling generally falls under criminal law, where most other business issues are within civil law.

Improper business registration, or failure to pay business taxes, and so on are civil infractions. Your idea may be considered a business so it might cross that line. Not a big deal.

Running a gambling establishment is often a criminal infraction. That is a big deal.

Civil infraction == Pay a fine, Cease-and-desist order, etc.
Criminal infraction == Go directly to jail. Do not pass go, etc.

Hi, thanks for the replies. I'm not surprised to see the conversation shift to the legal side of things. But let's count that as pretty much discussed... the question I am more interested in, which few have answered, is whether people would play games using this model, if legal/cheating issues could be addressed?

On the cheating front... online poker is subject to a HUGE amount of cheating, in the form of poker playing bots. However, this doesn't deter human players. I'm not saying that's a water-tight argument, but online poker is well established and follows almost exactly the model I'm talking about - so it might be most productive to focus discussion on how poker principles can/can't be adopted in other games.

Also a side note... online gambling is very legal in the UK and (I believe) the rest of Europe. I know many poker and betting sites were hit quite hard by the US banning it, but they are still a hugely profitable industry. I can go online and bet $1000 on a sports game with no difficulty at all, if I wanted.

Quote: Original post by JDXSolutions Ltdthe question I am more interested in, which few have answered, is whether people would play games using this model, if legal/cheating issues could be addressed?

There aren't many, if any, games that I personally would get online and play matches for money, as I consider myself an 'average' player at most games. However if I could play against people, that I actually know, for a few bucks, perhaps I would.

However, I'm sure there are plenty of other people who would be willing to bet a few (or a lot) bucks on games/matches of Halo, Modern Warfare, Unreal Tournament, Command and Conquer, Starcraft, etc, especially if they already play online and do well.

Quote: Original post by JDXSolutions Ltd
On the cheating front... online poker is subject to a HUGE amount of cheating, in the form of poker playing bots. However, this doesn't deter human players. I'm not saying that's a water-tight argument, but online poker is well established and follows almost exactly the model I'm talking about - so it might be most productive to focus discussion on how poker principles can/can't be adopted in other games.

There is a huge difference between a poker playing bot and a halo playing bot.

While a poker bot will be profitable at lower levels, they will range from slightly profitable to slightly unprofitable at mid levels, and mostly unprofitable at high levels. Playing mathematically/logical poker is only profitable within lower limits.

Playing logically correct chess on the other hand, creates an extreme advantage.

Having precision aim and reflexes in an FPS or sports game, is an extreme advantage.

A poker bot can be beaten easily, a gaming bot can not.

Quote: Original post by ChurchSkiz
There is a huge difference between a poker playing bot and a halo playing bot.
Having precision aim and reflexes in an FPS or sports game, is an extreme advantage.
A poker bot can be beaten easily, a gaming bot can not.

Excellent points. FPS games are probably the most widely cheated at, I believe, would that be fair? But's that because people don't generally write an entire FPS-playing bot, as far as I know - rather they add computer-aids to human play. So things like super-accurate shooting?

I can't see someone writing a full game-playing AI for an RTS, FPS or Driving game... good AI for these games takes professional developers a LOT of time to do well. Obviously some games are easier to code AI for than others, so the challenge would be to make the time needed to write a good AI not worth the small money that could be made.

Quote: Original post by JDXSolutions Ltd

Quote: Original post by ChurchSkiz
There is a huge difference between a poker playing bot and a halo playing bot.
Having precision aim and reflexes in an FPS or sports game, is an extreme advantage.
A poker bot can be beaten easily, a gaming bot can not.

Excellent points. FPS games are probably the most widely cheated at, I believe, would that be fair? But's that because people don't generally write an entire FPS-playing bot, as far as I know - rather they add computer-aids to human play. So things like super-accurate shooting?

FPS cheaters do a lot of things.

1. Alter the map slightly, with hidden passages that are undetected by the server.
2. Replace the models with very visible models. Bright colors. Large objects. etc.
3. Disable fog and raise brightness.
4. Make everything transparent, so they can see other players through walls and objects
5. Use aim bots, that aim perfectly and automatically. Instant head shots faster than a normal person can even hope to aim. Shoot backwards while walking forwards.
6. Maps to see where players are.
7. Alter game data or network data to move faster than the server allows. Or lag on purpose to make their movement erratic.
8. Display the hit boxes on top of the models, so they can aim perfectly.

Someone playing poker using a bot can be beaten by a midrange player, because the bluff is a very important element of poker and hard to bot. However, it takes a top tier player to beat a cheater at FPS. How can a player beat a cheater who knows where you are, can hit a head shot without even having you on screen and can reach all the weapon spawning points before you?