I don't see the connection. That incident has nothing to do with "not communicating with the government". It's just about officers that thought there was a law that said you had to speak English.
The incidents are classic examples of not communicating with the government. If English was made the official language, more incidents like these are almost guaranteed to happen.
Quote:Original post by Sirisian
Quote:Original post by LessBread
Quote:From ProEnglish So, if all this is true what does the term "official English" mean? It means that a government has decided that in order for its actions, laws, and business to be considered authoritative, they must be communicated in the English language. It means that there can be no disagreement about which language is the controlling one for discerning the meaning that government intends. And it means that absent a broad, public interest reason for using another language, the default language of government operations is English.
That sounds well and good, but the result is more likely to resemble the situation with those traffic tickets in Dallas. If 30 states have adopted this law there should be ample evidence to examine regarding the consequences. However, since the Federal government hasn't adopted this law, those consequences might be masked. For example, states administer Federal benefits - medicare, food stamps, etc - and are likely tasked with providing information on those programs in a variety of languages. State restrictions may be overridden by Federal requirements ---- anyway, I've got to run. I think you can figure out where I'm going with this.
I really don't see the connection. No one is going to be fining people for not speaking English. They'd just make sure that the government documents were only in English. I'm curious how much of the governments normal operations happen in other languages anyway. I think knowing that would be key to finding out if the transition is reasonable.
I've already pointed to a case were people were fined for not speaking English. It may have been aberrant, but it took 3 years before anyone took notice. It's naive to claim that it won't happen repeatedly if "official English" is adopted. It's only about government documents on the surface. In my experience, the preponderance of the normal government operations occur in English already. Those that don't pertain to providing services to people who don't speak English. Imo, the "offical English" movement is about appeasing people who become angry when robotic operators tell them to "Press 1 for English, Press 2 for Spanish" and so on. It's really about cutting off government services to people who don't speak English.
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
Having checked (the English version of) Wikipedia, Romania has Romanian as the only official language, but citizens in areas with at least 20% of native speakers of other languages are entitled to dealing with authorities in their own language and to public education in their own language. I expect studying Romanian as a foreign language is a compulsory part of the curriculum for them too, and I see that as a good thing. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.
The benefits of everyone speaking a common language are enormous and obvious, especially for minority speakers, and more so when that language is the world's lingua franca, and even more so when it's English which is one of the easier to learn at least at a very basic level.
So while the goal of having as many learn it as possible is very worthy, going out of one's way to punish non-speakers doesn't seem to me to do anything to further it. English is already winning, everyone already is highly incentivized to learn it, no point in coercing when mere facilitating will achieve just as much or more. There probably are a lot of worse ways to spend tax payers' money than English education programs.
Quote:Original post by Diodor English is already winning, everyone already is highly incentivized to learn it, no point in coercing when mere facilitating will achieve just as much or more.
I think the people pushing "Official English" in the USA do so because they fear that English is losing. They flip through the broadcast television channels and find a third of them in Spanish. They flip through the radio dial and find a third of stations broadcasting in Spanish. They visit the doctor and find half the patients speaking a language other than English. They visit a government office for services and although the paperwork is in English, they see it's also available in a dozen languages other than English. Then as they drive home they see that the old steak house has become a Mexican restaurant and they start to feel that their nation is slipping away beneath their feet.
Quote:Original post by Diodor There probably are a lot of worse ways to spend tax payers' money than English education programs.
It seems to me that if "Official English" in the USA involved spending more tax money to teach people to speak English, the people pushing "Official English" would drop it immediately.
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
Quote:Original post by LessBread It seems to me that if "Official English" in the USA involved spending more tax money to teach people to speak English, the people pushing "Official English" would drop it immediately.
Though that's what US English at least claims will happen: money spent on providing services in multiple languages will be redirected to teach English. I haven't looked too hard, but all the same I haven't seen evidence of that occurring in the states who have declared English the official language.
As a first generation immigrant I believe that English should be and remain the official national language, since that is the language of the US Constitution (but not because it is the "language of the land" -- Native American languages lay claim to that). However, the United States is made up of individual states, and one of the reasons for that system was to accommodate the needs of different locales. As such, English should be the official national language, but states should have national languages assigned based on a linguistic census (of course, English must be one of the national languages, since that is the language of state constitutions).
I see nothing wrong with having all students receive mandatory education in a foreign language (to, among other things, become better world citizens), but I see something wrong with the asymmetry of immigrants not learning English (to, among other things, take better advantage of their rights as US citizens). Thus, there is nothing wrong with requiring all US citizens (except Native Americans) to speak English (as it is the language of the Constitution). After all, if we require our born citizens to know a foreign language, we should require our borne citizens to learn the domestic language. That way, everyone knows two languages and we can efficiently procure only two translators maximum for translation of any language to another (From language A to English, to language B). Also, students should be encouraged to take a foreign language that is not Spanish (or at least not have everyone know only the same foreign language): we should be able to grab any two people and be able to translate from a foreign language to another foreign language, not from Spanish back to Spanish. This benefits us in terms of awareness and intelligence (as in national security), especially in the information age.
There is nothing wrong with having official documents available only in English, provided that they are documents only citizens would use. With that said, it is practical to have localized versions of official documents available (at least on request), or at least localized summaries of official documents and forms, simply because it prevents errors from being made by immigrants (even if you know English fluently, false cognates to your native language are distracting).
Law enforcement and intelligence agency personnel should learn the languages of the district they are working in, for national security purposes.
Basically, English should be THE US national language. All US citizens must know at least Simple English (includes those born here and those borne here). All non-English speaking immigrants should have the chance to learn English, at least to become citizens. English should not be the only official language of every state. All US citizens must know English and a foreign language (that means English speakers learn a foreign language, non-English speaking immigrants learn English). Accommodation of non-English speakers is optional and unnecessary. Accommodation of ESL speakers (e.g. Simple English documents) is practical and coincidental to accommodating non-English speakers. It is hypocritical to require students to know a foreign language and immigrants not to know a domestic language.
"Official English" is basically a movement to enshrine racist and xenophobic ideas in law. The principle (and intended) effect is to prevent children who do not speak english from being educated in a language they understand. I'm sure this is something every real American can get behind. We need more ignorant, disaffected people we can discriminate against. They're good at harvesting crops and cleaning toilets.
Quote:Original post by Diodor English is already winning, everyone already is highly incentivized to learn it, no point in coercing when mere facilitating will achieve just as much or more.
I think the people pushing "Official English" in the USA do so because they fear that English is losing. They flip through the broadcast television channels and find a third of them in Spanish. They flip through the radio dial and find a third of stations broadcasting in Spanish. They visit the doctor and find half the patients speaking a language other than English. They visit a government office for services and although the paperwork is in English, they see it's also available in a dozen languages other than English. Then as they drive home they see that the old steak house has become a Mexican restaurant and they start to feel that their nation is slipping away beneath their feet.
Quote:Original post by Diodor There probably are a lot of worse ways to spend tax payers' money than English education programs.
It seems to me that if "Official English" in the USA involved spending more tax money to teach people to speak English, the people pushing "Official English" would drop it immediately.
It's ironic how the people who don't believe government can do the likes of public health then expect the same government is going to be able to fight the culture wars by legislating morality or language.
