Quote: Original post by Momoko_Fan

Quote: Do seriously believe all those scientists are so immoral and corrupt that they'd ignore their own scientific and personal integrity just to keep a job?

Yes. With a job you have a home and money to spend, without a job you're outside homeless asking for food from strangers. And it's not just a job, it's a big stain on your entire career if you have been found out to be lying about scientific data.

Even better than a job is being SET FOR LIFE without having to work. I'm pretty sure that ExxonMobil would GLADLY make that happen for the scientists who would come forward with proof of some huge scam. So, where are the money-hungry scientists ready to blow the whistle in exchange for that life?


Seriously... WTH? It's not like we're talking about data exclusively provided by some government-controlled satellite flying out past Jupiter. We're talking about the TEMPERATURE that every Joe Blow can record for themselves every single day -- there are people who've done exactly that. There are almanacs and news stations filled with this data, and I'm sure some of the daily readings are from isolated areas. Why haven't these people stepped forward to show us The Great Truth about the temperature record???

Coming in without any proof, and claiming there's some worldwide conspiracy based on OPENLY-AVAILABLE data and research papers is beyond ridiculous. If anything, the email hack shows a rather distinct absence of any far-reaching conspiracy -- no one's found any discussion about billionaire liberals secretly funding The Conspirators, nor any claims that the whole thing is a hoax by these guys who would supposedly be "in the know," nor any discussion of directives being handed down from the socialist dictators out to get you. This has to be a trolling attempt, and I have to say, "well done."

Quote: Original post by Diodor
....So you have tiny fields where it's hard to disprove any result, manned by people self selected to care about the environment and to want to save the planet...

But, as you point out, they are up against one of the most financially capable lobbies on the planet [the oil industry]. Could we truly believe it likely that a worldwide group of tacit conspirators are so tight that none of them comes forward about faked data or any smoking gun about a hoax?

I have to say that'd be one amazingly tight group of unacquainted collaborators of disparate nationalities.

If anyone can support one of these theories by showing any peer-reviewed research paper with questionable data or something along those line, then I'd certainly be grateful to see something more concrete than idle speculation about worldwide conspiracies involving hundreds (if not thousands) of not-very-well-off people.

Quote: Original post by HostileExpanse

Quote: Original post by Diodor
....So you have tiny fields where it's hard to disprove any result, manned by people self selected to care about the environment and to want to save the planet...

But, as you point out, they are up against one of the most financially capable lobbies on the planet [the oil industry]. And, yet, these tacit conspirators are so tight that none of them comes forward about faked data or any smoking gun about a hoax?

I have to say that'd be one amazingly tight group of unacquainted collaborators of disparate nationalities.

Hoax? Does my post require anything like that?

Quote: Original post by Diodor

Quote: Original post by HostileExpanse

Quote: Original post by Diodor
....So you have tiny fields where it's hard to disprove any result, manned by people self selected to care about the environment and to want to save the planet...

But, as you point out, they are up against one of the most financially capable lobbies on the planet [the oil industry]. And, yet, these tacit conspirators are so tight that none of them comes forward about faked data or any smoking gun about a hoax?

I have to say that'd be one amazingly tight group of unacquainted collaborators of disparate nationalities.

Hoax? Does my post require anything like that?

For the most part, yeah.

If it were true that the best that the data can say is that "we don't have much of a clue," but a scientist goes ahead and gives a definitive conclusion which so clearly overreaches his evidence, after which he also survives peer-review, then I'd say that the line from some small bandwagon bias has been crossed to something far more intentional.

Quote: Original post by Diodor
So you have tiny fields where it's hard to disprove any result, manned by people self selected to care about the environment and to want to save the planet...

Implicit collusion is at least somewhere between plausible and probable.

I agree that an implicit collusion in the form of mass self-delusion is far more plausible than the theory that there is some sort of secret society of climatologists in funny hats.

The problem I have with that though is that once a theory is proposed and generally accepted, proving a proper scientific counter to that theory is actually quite attractive to other scientists; if you can actually prove it to a sufficient level, it will get you published and make a name for yourself, and gaining that sort of fame can be a motivator by itself.

Quote: Original post by Nayem
Early scientists were of nearly unanimous opinion that the earth was the center of the earth, in times yonder. And pretty much only Nicolas Copernicus stood against them. so.... was copernicus crazy and we've now been duped to believe a false theory? Just trying to add a bit of perspective.

No, no, no. That's not perspective, that's propagating ignorance about the value of science and how science works. I'll let the master straighten you out. A snippet: "when people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together"

Quote: "9/11 conspiracy" gets almost seven million results

Except 9/11 conspiracy doesn't have hacked documents and emails from the FBI saying that they staged the 9/11 terrorist attack.

Quote: Seriously... WTH? It's not like we're talking about data exclusively provided by some government-controlled satellite flying out past Jupiter. We're talking about the TEMPERATURE that every Joe Blow can record for themselves every single day -- there are people who've done exactly that. There are almanacs and news stations filled with this data, and I'm sure some of the daily readings are from isolated areas. Why haven't these people stepped forward to show us The Great Truth about the temperature record???

They did. Alright look, here's two temperature graphs:

Here's one that says global warming is gonna kill us all:

(click image for source)

Here's one that shows global temperatures are declining and we have nothing to worry about:


So there's evidence to prove either thing, question is, which one is faked and which one isn't.

Quote: Original post by Diodor
So you have tiny fields where it's hard to disprove any result

Example of a result that's hard to disprove?

Quote: manned by people self selected to care about the environment and to want to save the planet

Either the science is good or it's bad. Attack the science, if you can. Speculating about the biases of the scientists is a distraction from the science.

Quote: Original post by Momoko_Fan
So there's evidence to prove either thing, question is, which one is faked and which one isn't.

None of those graphs are fake, but they tell half-truths.

I can spot two issues with the second one. First, CO2 is not the only greenhouse gas. Secondly, the graph only talks about air temp, not overall temp. Overall we are still getting warmer, and the oceans are absorbing that additional warmth.

Momoko_Fan, do you take any time at all to think before you post? Take a good look at the two graphs. You're looking at the best-fit line that starts at 2001 or 2002 on your your comfort graph, right? Now look at the graph which represents our evil conspiracy. What kind of a trend does the best-fit line on Satan's graph show starting in the early 2000s? The evil conspirators really, really suck at faking the data, if this is your proof.