Rather than a game having an overall goal, what do you think about players designing characters which have goals that complete the game for that character?. You have a persistent world that (ideally) runs like some sort of organic simulation. Times change, nations rise and fall, and you get to live out a kind of RPG / life sim experience through it all. But what's the ultimate point? If you can master one general game goal, like kill the evil wizard in the tower of whatever, then you may get closure but having the world continue on may undermine it. Even games that let you play after you've beaten them acknowledge that you'll no longer do anything important-- and an organic simulation implies that new threats will rise again. What would motivate you to want to see how the world changes (and even change it) yet provide each character experience with closure? What about goals that are highly specific and personal to the character you create, and which can evolve as you play? In one game, for instance, you play a wealthy merchant that gets murdered by bandits. In the next, you get to play a sibling, spouse or child that gets character bonuses and goals directly related to your first character's death. That game ends with your victory and peaceful death, but your next character suffers a curse from a mysterious ring taken from the corpse of the first character's murderer. The game journals all of this. Players can pick up new goals from objects they find or special interactions with characters. But the goals either are random (like Life Aspirations in The Sims) and part of a character creation process which rewards the player with character building points the more they accomplish the goals. They also might work like a skill tree, in that past action influenced future choices. So a bloodthirsty pirate, for instance, might have his wealth and pillaging goals turn his heart away from the arts and sciences. Thoughts?

Here's an idea that might seem repetitive at first, but might be realistic: create story templates that simply replace the key players according to prevailing social or economic conditions in that world.

For example, one story template reads: second and third most wealthy merchant factions team enlist the player to take down the boss of the most wealthy merchant faction. If the third most wealthy faction is losing business over the course of the mission, it will betray the second most wealthy faction to the most wealthy faction.

The game will substitute the factions, names, and players according to a simple economic measure. In one play session, the player may side with the second most wealthy merchant faction. But in another play session, it turns out that due to the changing world, the third most wealthy merchant faction has advanced equipment, which leads to a different play experience. Along the way, you can have different twists specific to the player. For example, let's say the player character is a magic user. What if the story template system picks a faction that has magiphobes in its leadership? Or, what if the player was previously killed by pirates, and it just so happens that the hiring faction was working with the pirates?

It will take considerable work to make robust story templates, but the end result is that history repeats itself, just as it does in real life. And each iteration will have its own unique variations. You can even base story templates on real life repetitions: for example, the most powerful and invasive military force in that world will always mount a struggling invasion against a country with natural defenses, which might be a cold winter, as it was in real life, or a dense tropical forest.

In short, history repeats itself, but it varies since it changes the key characters over time. You can try the same.

Isn't this pretty much what RPGs do, but as a side story from the whole? Like Dragon Age: ORigins, where you ultimately defeat the Blight. However, your side kicks each has different problems where you help them do that as a sidequest?

Though from what you wrote it sounds like you want the entire game to be like teh side quests with no ultimate goal in sight.

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Original post by JDS0 Here's an idea that might seem repetitive at first, but might be realistic: create story templates that simply replace the key players according to prevailing social or economic conditions in that world.

This could work but as you point out it'll be a lot of work to set up the templates. I've got something similar in mind but I'd like to rely on rules and NPC or faction attributes. So in your merchant team up and double cross example I'd like to define factions as having the possibility, based on stats like wealth and market share, to ally and break alliances at will.

One major problem this poses is the possibility of oscillation-- if you try to simulate dramatic situations based on rules rather than templates you may experience mindless repetition-- things like factions constantly making, breaking and then remaking alliances. In some cases this might be novel, but I think most of the time it'd be irritating.

But if the rules can dampen this sort of thing you'd have a far more fluid scenario.

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For example, let's say the player character is a magic user. What if the story template system picks a faction that has magiphobes in its leadership? Or, what if the player was previously killed by pirates, and it just so happens that the hiring faction was working with the pirates?

Cool example, I like it. Much like random dungeons with different monsters-- just because you know the pattern doesn't make it a cakewalk.

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for example, the most powerful and invasive military force in that world will always mount a struggling invasion against a country with natural defenses, which might be a cold winter, as it was in real life, or a dense tropical forest.

We're thinking exactly the same thing. :) Thanks for the great idea!

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Original post by pothb Isn't this pretty much what RPGs do, but as a side story from the whole? Like Dragon Age: ORigins, where you ultimately defeat the Blight. However, your side kicks each has different problems where you help them do that as a sidequest?

Not sure side quests work as an analogy because you often know that you're doing them in lieu of the main quest, maybe as a distraction to skill up. So they're at one level inherently not as relevant as the main quest.

This is meant to be something that is relevant to you because it's your character's "path in life," so to speak. It's not supposed to be a side quest, it's supposed to be the point of playing a particular character at a particular time in history, and it's supposed to (within reason) change with the character and the times.

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Though from what you wrote it sounds like you want the entire game to be like teh side quests with no ultimate goal in sight.

It's this sentiment I'm trying to watch out for because to me that sort of implies meaninglessness. But maybe for some RPG gamers not having the game come to an ultimate halt WOULD be meaningless.

I'm throwing this idea out there because I can't see a really valid way of ending the game.



It's

Well, I phrased that badly. Rather than no ultimate goal, I more of meant, no ultimate goal that involves others... Like you do what you do because you wanted to have a better life, rather than help save a city from being destroyed or the world from extinction.

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Original post by pothb Rather than no ultimate goal, I more of meant, no ultimate goal that involves others... Like you do what you do because you wanted to have a better life, rather than help save a city from being destroyed or the world from extinction.

Hmmm... okay I see what you're saying. I should have been more clear about this.

I don't think those two things have to be mutually exclusive. What if your goal was something like, "Free your people from slavery" or "Find the artifact that will unite the factions of humanity" or something of the like?

The important point I was asking folks to consider was how they'd feel if there was no definable, game ending goal. It would be a game where you start to see patterns across history but save for very special events the world itself can always be played in.

In open ended games with no goal at all, you might roam around, explore everything, run through all the missions then be left with whatever ambient gameplay there is, such as random combat (like in Escape Velocity, which leaves you just fighting random pirates with so much money that it's pointless for anything other than the fun of a quick battle). This sort of leaves you with a "blah" feeling.

The idea I posted about might end up being the same thing, but I'm hoping not.

I adore the idea of a persistent, organic world serving as a backdrop for gameplay, and it's one of the things I like best about Dwarf Fortress, although the world there is crude and so much of the goal structure is up to the player.

Last week, for instance, I had a fortress that was destroyed by a goblin army, so I looked up the faction that had sent the conquering army, started a solo adventurer character and made his life's quest the execution of the goblin society's elite officers, clergy and political figures. I got a good set of armor from the ruins of my old fort, and found the one exception-quality weapon the fort ever produced (a steel sword, very nice) and, after levelling up for a few in-game years, stormed the goblin citadel. I killed dozens of their people, found their temple, and promptly got shot in the neck by a low-level guard. I stumbled into their priestess's sanctum and decapitated her, then bled to death under a pile of goblins. Then I sent out a new team of dwarves to reclaim the dead fort. I built better defenses, and eventually one of my engravers randomly put a depiction of my lost adventurer on the wall. It was far and away my most rewarding narrative experience in that game.

Every involved faction and individual had been generated in the world-creation event, and things like the subject of works of art are generated semi-randomly (the engraving was of my guy wrestling a cougar, rather than beheading a priestess, for instance), but every now and again something truly awesome happens.

I had to do all the work, though. I got mad at the goblins, I made the adventurer want to avenge the failed fort, I chose to use the historically significant sword instead of an axe or crossbow that might have been more effective in battle, I rushed a fully-levelled, well-equipped character into a hopeless battle against overwhelming odds, knowing that perma-death was the only possible outcome, and I manufactured my personal satisfaction when I killed a minor member of their religious infrastrucure, along with a bunch of tradesmen, guards and peasants. There was no congratulatory screen, no achievement notification and no reward except that years later some random citizen carved that guy's likeness onto the wall of a tunnel.

If you could build a ruleset able to recognize significant events and codify them into available quests, which could then be linked to characters and included in story events, works of art or personal objectives, I'd probably explode with delight.

What would that even look like? Would the game offer "avenge fort, bust up goblins" as a quest? Would it be part of character creation to choose a life's purpose for your guy? Could you change or abandon your quest without "losing"?

I've been staring at this screen for almost two hours now, typing and deleting paragraph after paragraph, trying to formulate a system that'll work, and I'm giving up. It's just too big for me. Good luck.

The problem with using rules rather than story templates is that without the rigidity of templates, you will get very confusing and unplayable events, just like real life: for example, you could have a war between three guys named Henry, and due to the rules, one of the Henrys keeps on oscillating his religious alignment.

Another advantage of having such story templates as an explicit structure in your game logic is that story templates can keep track of how many times they have been invoked: in the invasion story template, let's say that two other highly militant invasive forces have already tried to attack the same geological region, to no avail, within the space of an epoch. The story template system can have a conditional that removes that geological region from the list of potential victims for the next time it is invoked within that epoch, which prevents the players from scratching their heads and going "Gee, you'd think the developers would quit having the Ruxian Winterland invaded every Tuesday!"

As for an ultimate goal, I'd take from mythology and have the ultimate goal be for the player to become the supreme ruler of whatever it is you want him to rule. The player, from his vantage point, can use his authority to shape the world, effectively making this a "level editing" stage. When the player so chooses, he can then choose to play in the world he shaped, and be the typical "king in a beggar's disguise." Depending on what he does in disguise, he can either retire to his castle at any time, or make his steward launch a coup against an absentee king, at which point the game reverts to "become a ruler mode". This makes for interesting replay: become a king, put down a rebellion, appoint yourself emperor. Make your own level, abdicate, and raise a rebellion, possibly against your own steward.

Let's take it further: you can choose to become ruler of the land (make laws, create buildings, etc), or of its underworld (create syndicates, build weapons, etc). You may also collect a grail and choose to ascend to godhood (more powerful level editor, but more limited power when you abdicate) or "infernality" (less powerful level editor, but less limits on your power when you abdicate). Deities may also choose to incarnate in a living or unborn character, the idea being that a deity may effectively "create" a character, then incarnate into him, for a totally customized gameplay experience. As a twist, make a "deity" character responsible for shaping the player before he gets the grail. That way, the player is even more aware that the story has come full circle and he is playing god.

This is basically the open world equivalent of unlocking the level editor, cheat codes, and full level replay after you beat the game. Just make sure that the "grail" message makes it clear that the player has in fact unlocked the full potential of the game and completed its ultimate goal. You now have all the flexibility of an open world with the closure of an RPG.

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage Dwarf Fortress ...

That's such a cool story because it was so personal, and what I really like is that you could have done so many other things. I have GOT to play this game.

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I had to do all the work, though.

Okay, quick and dirty attempt here of what character creation might be. I don't know DF but I'll aim it toward your example anyway. I'm going to assume that the game logged "Goblin Attack" as a major world event and noted that everyone died. So when you make your solo character you get something like:

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mad at the goblins,

Character perk "Natural Enemies." Gives you +X to hit and double XP if you kill all enemies of a given type in a location or encounter.

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I chose to use the historically significant sword instead of an axe or crossbow

"Recovered Artifact: The memory of those fallen gives you the fortitude to carry on." Temporary HP bonus when fighting "Natural Enemies." (I'm making this crap up on the fly you understand?)

And maybe there's some sort of strategic dimension here. Those priests? Permanent buffs to the enemies you meet in the fortress, maybe. Or permanent morale penalty until they ship in a new one. The tradesmen? Let's make it more likely that when they're dead special items like healing potions don't appear on the enemy's body and their ammunition runs out more quickly.

I guess what I'm trying to say with this is that maybe it has to be approached as a strategy game. Of course I'm handwaving some of the complexity. It's not easy. But it seems to me that the NPCs and items need to be considered objects with properties (which could be randomized).

I get the impression that a lot of DF is simulation vs. what I have in mind in the form of events, but that might make the problem of deducing what happened easier. If you know that you generated a "goblin attack event" (rather than a bunch of individual AIs independently attacking) then I think that should be logged so we can have someone reference it later. It would be interesting to have just that fact alone key into ways of expressing it, as well.

When the hero attacks a location this could be world triggers starting up and tracking damage. Maybe you get more regard for stepping in and slaughtering everybody than for going back and forth continually. I like to think that you can define randomly generated characters as key characters, as well, and when they fall the world should be able to log that as well.

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Would the game offer "avenge fort, bust up goblins" as a quest?

"Remember the Alamo!" It's still (frustratingly) on paper, but I've been working on this idea of "nodes acting against nodes and generating events." In non-Wavinatorese that would mean you define the node as a significant location or person, choose an action based on some attributes (attack, trade, defend), roll some dice behind the scenes and report the result as an event either accessible through an NPC or as general news.

If it's logical to do that, then query the events of highest, most recent magnitude and allow those to be selectable quests. (The main flaw I see with this, though, is that what the system thinks as important may not be important to the player)

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Would it be part of character creation to choose a life's purpose for your guy?

Either this or I have long been thinking of some more dramatic "find your destiny" process where the goals are semi-hidden. I don't have that worked out very well at all, though.

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Could you change or abandon your quest without "losing"?

Here's an idea: You can change goals at any time, but they cost character points, which is the RPG coin you use to build your character (I'm stealing from GURPS thinking point creation). So you can choose a new goal at the cost of "deleveling" or losing out on future leveling. However, every so often, either relating to dramatic turning points (whatever the heck those would be), in world game events (alien invasion, gold rush) or character age you get to pick new goals at a vastly discounted cost.

That way, you can abandon your quest at a cost or not experience growth and just do other more open-ended stuff in the world until an event hit.

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I've been staring at this screen for almost two hours now, typing and deleting paragraph after paragraph, trying to formulate a system that'll work, and I'm giving up.

!@$*!! Seriously? I thought I was the only one who did that!!!!

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It's just too big for me. Good luck.

Well, standard disclaimer that this is what the system seems like it should be. Getting it to work-- who knows, maybe I'll be posting about this in 2019... :P