I was wondering if any one could think of something that could be used to replace Magic in a Fantasy MMO. Most magic is used for long range combat so I guess you could just use cross bows guns and things like that instead of Magic but I would love to see what you guys can come up with for other ideas! Thanks!

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Without knowing the specific gameplay goals of the system you're trying to implement, it sounds like more of a writing challenge than a game design challenge.

For my part, I'm a huge fan of distant-future-dark-age scenarios with ancient scientific relics granting powers to those who can decypher their use.

The steampunk style has a lot of neat Jules Verne-style potential, with electricity and acid doing remarkable things, and it has the added benefit of looking pretty sweet.

Along those same lines you can use genetic engineering, radioactivity or nanotechnology to justify just about anything you care to dream up. See also aliens, ghosts, nature spirits and psionic potential.

Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like you want something that works like magic but does not follow magical conventions?

I assume you are not opposed to doing something supernatural as long as it does not use mana or looks like casting spells?

Iron Chef Carnage covers most of the things that would come to my mind. I am a huge fan of psychic powers and technology, so maybe you can explore that some.

Magic shouldn't just be that long ranged thing you do to do damage and effects. I'd recomend looking up the science of magic or similar, then design mechanics based off those.

In the end you can come off as being very different in setting and story just by treating magic as a few dozen branches of science.

The reason I am asking is because I am a christian. I don't mind Harry potter and things like that but I don't want my game to involve Magic even from a science perspective. I want to be able to sit down at my computer when I have parties and things where my church friends are over and be able to freely check up on things and show off the game to them with out wondering if they approve of it or not. I want to be able to play it when my Pastor's Kids are around with out him telling them to get away from the computer because he doesn't approve of the magic.

Also lets face it Magic is in every Fantasy game for the most part and I want my game to be different.

The most obvious answer is also one of the oldest answers: electricity. Did you know that the Ark of the Covenant might have been constructed as a large capacitor?

Electricity can do plenty to justify magic-like effects in a fantasy world. For example, you can have electrically-enhanced weapons made with gold inset, since gold is an excellent conductor: gold weapons would then be "color coded" as magic ones, just as poison weapons are typically color-coded green.

Tesla-coil based weaponry could plausibly serve as anti-armor long ranged weapons, although that is a bit cliched. It would be more interesting to fire arrows with wires attached, then send electricity through those wires to the enemy. Flying "magic" enemies could ride on ionocraft vehicles. Jacobs ladders could tip the spears of wizards. Castles could have a "magic" field of wires made of fine metal thread, used to electrocute intruders. A mission to siege a castle might involve severing its connection to a lightning collection device located at the top of a remote mountain.

Special characters with metal teeth could have "magic" "telepathic" connections to large towers which are actually arcane radio stations (based on real life stories where people with metal splinters in their jaws were able to pick up radio signals). Gaining "telepathy" involves learning morse code and getting a metal tooth (medieval times had really bad dental care).

Just to disguise things for the fantasy setting, you could call electrical magic "Leyden" after the jars used to store it. And as long as you have those, might as well include magnetic magic (there's a reason magic and magnetism have similar names) as "ferren" or just "magen".

Magnetic magic could include telekinetic effects on metal objects and those with metal armor. It could also be used to create magnet-tipped arrows which have a high chance of hitting a metal target.

If it isn't already too obvious, using magnetism and electricity as magic has the side effect of making the use of metal a serious consideration: while metal is susceptible to "magic", items made of it are also more durable and reliable. This can be an interesting gameplay mechanic.

On the extreme scale you can have large, devastating weapons based off of microwaves, used as either siege engines or castle defense systems.

I recommend reading Ten Years to Doomsday, which features scientists infiltrating a medieval-age planet to accelerate its technological advancement in order to repel an advancing alien invasion.

In keeping with this old-age high-tech setting, you might want a healthy dose of steampunk, especially if you plan on including steam generators.

[Edited by - JDS0 on October 17, 2009 11:14:49 PM]

I know I'm going to sound harsh, but I was forced to go to a christian church for 18 years of my life so I have to touch on this. I understand the desire to be unique but the fact that you're asking for ways to design a game that traditionally uses magic (which it uses because it's a fun gameplay mechanic) and replace it with something functionally equivalent to magic but with a different name in order to impress your friends? This is like me asking how I could murder people without the nasty consequences like death and a lifetime in prison. If you're just doing it to keep your pastor around, your stupid. If you agree and don't like the concept of magic and feel it goes against your religion, that's fine. Just don't tell me that you're not going to design a game with, of all things, magic in it because your pastor won't hang out with you anymore.

Which brings me to my next point. Isn't the point of magic to basically obliterate anything thats in your way (not counting the one boring healing spell that every game HAS to have)? With murder being a sin and all, wouldn't that just as easily offend your friends?

/rant

On a more productive note, break magic down to it's core and it's simply something that we don't understand. Electricity was once considered magic. The sun was once considered a god and actually still is in some parts of the world. Any magician can tell you that the "magic" they do on stage is simply something that people don't quite understand or can't explain. It can be anything really.

Common example from... well just about all RPGs: throwing a fireball from your hand because you said some special incantation or whatever. You said some weird things and fire flew from your hands. Why? Don't know.

You read from your Book O' Magic and your friend suddenly notices his pain is gone and injuries have healed. Why? Just because.

Just get creative and think of a pretty way to package up the unknown or unexplained. That's all magic is. The good thing is you're going for different now so you have no predefined rules to adhere to and can pretty much make anything happen to anyone from anywhere.

^^^
Christian games are often less about the game part than a typical video game, in which case wanting to take out things like magic is quite within design of the product.

Also, some Christian games are a lot like regular games in actual gameplay, but with names and things change to something more Christian. Example, Spritual Warfare(actually a pretty fun game) was pretty much a Zelda rip-off in concept and execution, but the names of things and some gameplay elements were taken from the Bible instead where-ever else.



As for what to replace magic, one of the only RPGs I actually liked was Secret of Evermore, which used "alchemy". Basically, in order to do, say, a fireball, you first needed to buy/find the right ingredients, then you could mix them and use it to make your fireball. It worked because instead of having mana points or something, you had a formula for each thing, and you had to get the right amount of each item to use it. The other benefit is that you instead of having one value for all your magic(i.e. each spell requires x magic points), you can be fully stocked on 1 formula, and have nothing for another.
This gives the player more control, they can stock up on items for all their healing formulas and avoid the ones for attacking formulas or whatever suits them. Plus if you want them to not be able to do use certain formula ina certain area, make the required items scarce there.

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If you agree and don't like the concept of magic and feel it goes against your religion, that's fine. Just don't tell me that you're not going to design a game with, of all things, magic in it because your pastor won't hang out with you anymore.

I have not actually encountered this much at all. I even play D&D with an Anglican Minister, and he is fine with magic (He has even played an evil mage that resurrects the dead).

It seems that this is actually only a small subset of religious people that have this aversion.

(and just so you know religious my position: I am an Atheist).

But on topic:

Looking at the historical uses of "Magic" it stems from a belief that certain words/actions hold power. This is also the reasoning behind the "rude" words that we have (you can see this as they are also called "curse" words too).

The thing is, if these words really did hold power, then it wouldn't matter what language you spoke, the words should be the same. As each culture has its own set of "curse" words, then it seems that words don't hold power and the whole concept of magic falls down.

"Magic" in games has very little to do with this, except in the themeing (visual and sound effects).

If you really think you need to change "magic" in games, then you can just not call it that and not even call it anything, but still use the same mechanics. Just call "Manna" "Energy" or something (or "Laxative" - yes this is actually one of the dictionary definitions of Manna - bet you didn't know that hey :D - from the dried extrusions of the Mediterranean Ash tree).

But the real question is this: Why is felt that magic is needed for a fantasy game? Can you have a fantasy game without any magic at all?

I think this is an interesting proposition.

I think it is possible.

Lets look at the use of magic in games. There is essentially 3 uses for magic in games:

1) Buff/Debuff
2) Healing
3) Artillery

So lets start with (1):
Firstly, is this needed at all. Why do we have the mechanics of Buff/Debuff? Generally this is used for tactical effects: If they are resistant to fire, then we can get rid of that, or if they are using fire, we can make ourselves resistant.

What other ways can we create tactical choices in our games (the way Buff/Debuffs are used now there really isn't much of a choice, there is usually a dominant choice which renders all other choices invalid - which I think actually eliminates any choice)?

What about fighting style/stances? It reminds me of the scene from "The Princess Bride" where the Dread Pirate Roberts and Inigo Montya are sword fighting on the top of the cliff:

Quote:

Inigo: You are using Bonetti's defense against me Roberts: I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain. Inigo: Naturally, you must expect me to attack with Capo Ferro. Roberts: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels Capo Ferro, don't you? Inigo: Unless the enemy hasn't studied his Agrippa, which I have!

If you give a character the ability to use different fighting styles/stances and they give an advantage over other styles. Changing stance take time and give cooldown on attacks (and stance changes too).

You can also add in terrain to this as well. If each area can have tags that say what type of terrain it is (rocky, steep, water, clear, etc) and then each style has modifiers in it depending on the terrain tags that are at that location. These tags can be part of the meta data that describes that terrain (you need things like textures and stuff anyway so this data would be included along with that). Remember the terrain does not hold the modifiers, only the tags, the code for the stances reads these tags and applies their own modifiers for it (this will give you much more flexibility and make it easier to patch the system).

So, Buff/Debuff can be handled by in other ways, including a Stance/style system.

But what about "Healing":

Well this is the Easiest, you can just dismiss this away with first aid kits, or herb lore (or such). The use of healing in games is so common that the mechanic exists on its own rather as being part of a "Magic" system.

But, you could do away with the need for any healing action altogether by using an automatic healing system or a cover system. If the character is in combat, then they don't heal, but if they are out of combat (or in cover) then they start to quickly heal.

Lastly is the use of "Magic" for Artillery.

I have never liked using magic for artillery in games. There are supposed to be other weapons that can do this (ranged attacks). The Chinese used to use explosive heads on arrows in war, so why not use the same thing? Use a chemist to allow players to use explosive, acidic, smoke, etc heads for arrows (or other devices).

Magic in literature (I did a course on this) is supposed to have a "Wow" factor, magic is meant to be mysterious and scary. But in games it is just a stand in for a mechanic. There is no mysteriousness, no danger, nothing to make it feel like "Magic". But you can get this sense of awe from other things too. The reason you should include Magic (or magic like effects) in your game is that you want the player to feel this awe. If you are only including it in your game because other people have it, then this is just a cliché, and not a good way to go about it.

So, if you want to replace magic in a game, but still ahve the feeling of power, then you have to give the players that feeling of power, without it being overly powerful.

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Original post by EmpireProductions The reason I am asking is because I am a christian. I don't mind Harry potter and things like that but I don't want my game to involve Magic even from a science perspective. I want to be able to sit down at my computer when I have parties and things where my church friends are over and be able to freely check up on things and show off the game to them with out wondering if they approve of it or not. I want to be able to play it when my Pastor's Kids are around with out him telling them to get away from the computer because he doesn't approve of the magic. Also lets face it Magic is in every Fantasy game for the most part and I want my game to be different.

For heaven's sake, magic was of central importance in C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia. From an artistic perspective, there's no particular reason that God couldn't have created a world where magic was a valid natural force. You just have to design it in a way that glorifies God, or at least is not offensive to him. More importantly, write the thing with concepts that glorify Him.

Of course, if you're dealing with thoroughly irrational people, of which the Church has its healthy share, then the above is something of a moot point. Depending on how perceptive they are you might be able to just change the names, or they might just be unpleasable. You can't please everyone, and you'll only waste time trying. Go with your conscience, and remember Romans 14.

For what it's worth, if you're thinking about "replacing" magic, you're still going to wind up in the same basic mold. If I were you, I'd wait until I have an original idea to build the game world around. Once you have that, you'll have a good game concept whether it has magic or not.

P.S. Yes, I'm a Christian.