Quote: Original post by Zahlman

Quote: Original post by Oberon_Command
I'll say this: I don't think we would ever see this happening in Canada.

To be fair, we haven't had a black PM yet. :)

True, but even then I'm not sure it would be that big of a deal for us. Unless we had a First Nations PM, which would be something different.

Quote: Original post by trzy

Quote: Original post by LessBread

Quote: Original post by trzy

Quote: Original post by nobodynews
Apparently a similar incident happened with George W. Bush for... well read for yourself here. Determine the similarities and differences between the two events yourselves.

edit: I missed that this was linked already. My bad.

Unfortunately, that's not at all comparable to what happened here. The Katrina incident was a group of kids from different states singing to Laura Bush at an event.

Different states? You make it sound like kids from Hawaii, Nevada and Vermont took part. The kids were from Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama -- states hit by Katrina -- and they were singing a song praising the Federal Government for a heckuva job. Ten days after this serenade the Senate released an 800 page report that faulted the Bush administration for "bungling the storm response". New Orleans was still full of debris. Authorities there were still counting bodies. Election day for mayor was a month away (Katrina Timeline). That mayoral campaign was in the national spotlight and FEMA et al. were prime targets for criticism. Perhaps the idea for the serenade came spontaneously from the children, although the notion that they were familiar with the tune "Hey Look Me Over" and thought it would make a good vehicle for the lyrics is a huge stretch. It's far more likely that the idea for the serenade sprang from the mind of Karl Rove who thought images of children singing praises to FEMA to the most popular Republican celebrity in the country at the time would distract attention away from the political storm destroying his bosses popularity, dragging down the GOP and wrecking his dream of a "one party" America. I want to say that you're right, the two events are not comparable, the serenade at the White House Easter Egg Roll was worse.

Years later it turns out that children displaced by Katrina are still suffering: Katrina Kids: Sickest Ever.

I think Malkin, Savage and Fox News are projecting their intentions onto the kids in New Jersey. They think the event is nefarious because if they did it, they know it would be nefarious, so if it's nefarious when "good Americans" do it, then it must be doubly nefarious when "bad Americans" do it. In the end, we learn more about Malkin, Savage and Fox News than we do about an obscure elementary school in New Jersey.

Who organized the kids in the Katrina incident? Where did they come from? Were they instructed by teachers who included other Obama-oriented activities in the classroom (as I heard reported on TV news)?

In a cursory web search I found a site called "Katrina's Kids" that claimed to have originated in Houston. I found nothing connecting that group with the group that sang at the White House, but I only skimmed their homepage. Have you done any research into answering the questions you pose?

The kids in the Katrina incident were not instructed by teachers who included other Obama-oriented activities. You're mixing the objects of your questions.

Quote: Original post by trzy
The point about the government's mismanagement of Katrina is completely tangential to this discussion because what's at issue here is not the policies or competence of the Presidents in question, but the appropriateness of having young children in public classrooms praising those policies and Presidents. The Katrina song incident is comparable to this one, which is not at all controversial.

The people politicizing the "Obama Singers" are not the people who organized the singing. The video was posted in June. The event captured on the video occurred when - February or March? The event was isolated to one school. The phony outrage over the video occurred in mid to late September as the follow up outrage to the outrage manufactured in the campaign protesting the President's address students on the first day of school. Outrage over the "Obama Singers" reinforces a descriptive narrative that the political opponents of the President seek to impose on the public at large.

The White House Easter serenade is relevant to the extent that the discussion concerns the appropriateness of employing children in an effort to achieve political objectives, for example, directing public attention away from issues concerning responsibility for a mismanaged disaster response. Are the people scandalizing the "Obama Singers" truly angry about using children in an effort to achieve political objectives or are they really angry that their party lost the election and their rants aren't resonating with the public?

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Let's take a step back for a moment and catch our breath. Do you remember singing songs in elementary school? How many of those songs do you remember?

I only remember one song from first grade and that's "Rocky Raccoon" by the Beatles. It wasn't a song the whole class sang, it was something I learned as part of a special education project that I took part in. I thought it was a song about a raccoon. I had no idea what the song was about until I bought the White Album in high school. I remember singing songs in third grade. The teacher played them on the piano and we sang along. She was old school - and by that I mean she had been teaching since the 1950's. Most of the songs we sang were patriotic songs. America the Beautiful, You're a Grand Old Flag, The Battle Hymn of the Republic, and yes, This Land is Your Land. I'm sure we sang more songs than that, but I don't remember them. And that's my point. If not for the controversy, those kids would probably forget that song in a few years. They'll remember it forever now.

Eh, good point, although you will have a select few who remember this.(For instance, when I first tried to think, I got nothing, but it is now coming back to me. In your defense I WAS prompted to remember.) I probably sung a song or two about Clinton(He was in office during my childhood) and I still don't remember it.

This isn't to say that teachers and schools don't try to teach kids to believe some things. For instance, some teachers force kids to say the pledge of allegiance. This imprints the idea that they HAVE to pledge to this country. I even hear of teachers in High school forcing students to do this.

Another example would be the pep-rallies. At my school, every season the students from every grade are forced to come(to one pep rally or another), and heavily encouraged to cheer along. These are little kids, so of course they are going to do it, it's a big game to them. Since they go through this EVERY year, they are unlikely to think contrary to what they have been told, that school spirit is ALL important, and they must support the football team, or they are against the school. I am starting a petition to allow certain individuals the choice to not attend, under teacher supervision. Most people wont sign it, on the grounds that EVERYONE has to support their school, because we are one big team. Another even discouraged one of the signers from signing it, even though it would not effect her IN THE SLIGHTEST. They do not even consider the notion that school is ONLY for learning, and preparing us for future education. At least, this is my perspective on this.

So, while this particular event may not have an effect, the possibility of it being an ATTEMPT to "conform" kids is still in place, at least in my mind.

Quote: Original post by owl
I wish someone showed some respect for the presidential figure in my country.

Respect is earned not automatic. Winning an election doesn't grant respect. Obama hasn't earned my respect yet.

Quote: Original post by Machaira

Quote: Original post by owl
I wish someone showed some respect for the presidential figure in my country.

Respect is earned not automatic. Winning an election doesn't grant respect. Obama hasn't earned my respect yet.

Yet you respect the position he occupies. I meant respect for the seat, not for the person. The figure of "t3h pr3Z1d3nt"

Quote: Original post by Aezon

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Let's take a step back for a moment and catch our breath. Do you remember singing songs in elementary school? How many of those songs do you remember?

I only remember one song from first grade and that's "Rocky Raccoon" by the Beatles. It wasn't a song the whole class sang, it was something I learned as part of a special education project that I took part in. I thought it was a song about a raccoon. I had no idea what the song was about until I bought the White Album in high school. I remember singing songs in third grade. The teacher played them on the piano and we sang along. She was old school - and by that I mean she had been teaching since the 1950's. Most of the songs we sang were patriotic songs. America the Beautiful, You're a Grand Old Flag, The Battle Hymn of the Republic, and yes, This Land is Your Land. I'm sure we sang more songs than that, but I don't remember them. And that's my point. If not for the controversy, those kids would probably forget that song in a few years. They'll remember it forever now.

Eh, good point, although you will have a select few who remember this.(For instance, when I first tried to think, I got nothing, but it is now coming back to me. In your defense I WAS prompted to remember.) I probably sung a song or two about Clinton(He was in office during my childhood) and I still don't remember it.

I know we didn't sing songs about Nixon, Ford or Carter.

Quote: Original post by Aezon
This isn't to say that teachers and schools don't try to teach kids to believe some things. For instance, some teachers force kids to say the pledge of allegiance. This imprints the idea that they HAVE to pledge to this country. I even hear of teachers in High school forcing students to do this.

I hope teachers and schools are trying to teach kids to believe some things. Requiring children to recite the pledge of allegiance in school doesn't bother me. And if Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh accurately reflect the nation's ignorance of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, then schools should start requiring children to memorize those documents by heart.

Quote: Original post by Aezon
Another example would be the pep-rallies. At my school, every season the students from every grade are forced to come(to one pep rally or another), and heavily encouraged to cheer along. These are little kids, so of course they are going to do it, it's a big game to them. Since they go through this EVERY year, they are unlikely to think contrary to what they have been told, that school spirit is ALL important, and they must support the football team, or they are against the school. I am starting a petition to allow certain individuals the choice to not attend, under teacher supervision. Most people wont sign it, on the grounds that EVERYONE has to support their school, because we are one big team. Another even discouraged one of the signers from signing it, even though it would not effect her IN THE SLIGHTEST. They do not even consider the notion that school is ONLY for learning, and preparing us for future education. At least, this is my perspective on this.

I thought pep rallies were a joke and I played on the football team! That said, part of growing up is learning how to patiently sit through boring presentations. I have no sympathy for your complaint.

Quote: Original post by Aezon
So, while this particular event may not have an effect, the possibility of it being an ATTEMPT to "conform" kids is still in place, at least in my mind.

Most education boils down to "conforming" children, taming their wild beasts, so to speak.

Quote: Original post by owl

Quote: Original post by Machaira

Quote: Original post by owl
I wish someone showed some respect for the presidential figure in my country.

Respect is earned not automatic. Winning an election doesn't grant respect. Obama hasn't earned my respect yet.

Yet you respect the position he occupies. I meant respect for the seat, not for the person. The figure of "t3h pr3Z1d3nt"

Actually, I don't respect the position. IMO you can't respect a job title, you respect the person that has that job title after his name (if he's earned it). Why should I respect the position?

Quote: Original post by Machaira
Why should I respect the position?

Because it is a symbol that represents you, your fellowmen, your country, it's history and the sacrifice of those who died to protect it.

Quote: Original post by owl

Quote: Original post by Machaira
Why should I respect the position?

Because it is a symbol that represents you, your fellowmen, your country, it's history and the sacrifice of those who died to protect it.

Maybe many years ago, but now it's mostly a joke, usually going to the person with the deepest wallets or best PR. It certainly hasn't represented me. I'm actually preparing a speech for the local chapter of Toastmasters on exactly this, the joke that is our political system.

Quote: Original post by Machaira
Respect is earned not automatic. Winning an election doesn't grant respect.

Yes, because grasping the attention of a nation is...no big deal, right?

Quote: Original post by Machaira
Obama hasn't earned my respect yet.

Why not, exactly? If you want to come into this thread and say things like, "I don't respect the position of the POTUS" without leaving any reason why, do us all a favor and don't join this discussion.



[Edited by - Programmer One on October 2, 2009 2:13:27 PM]