There are a number of ways to add "skill" to a magic system, but it depends what kind of gameplay you're going to have. (2d or 3d, turn-based or realtime, PvE or PvP)

Some of the suggestions here are brutally complicated, and while there are plenty of ways you could make an interesting and innovative magic system, that doesn't always mean there will be more skill involved.

First I want to comment on reagents, player-made spells, and every other system where the majority of the effort is prepared before the actual fight. I think it is a possibility, however this kind of system will require a large amount of extra programming and graphics work, and the "skill" is essentially a one time challenge. What I mean by this is that once the player figures out the best combinations to use in his spells, he remembers that and there is no longer any challenge, as he just has to recreate what he knows to be successful. This is especially true in an mmo; in much the same way that build orders in an RTS do not add a large amount of skill (once the best build orders are known, everyone copies them. It can be a challenge to figure it out on your own by testing, and that's good for a single player RPG, but in an online game, chances are most people will just ask others what works best).

The next technique, which ties in to the player-made spells to some extent, is situational spells, and a kind of rock/paper/scissors combat system. For example, the player might use a fire spell for maximum damage against an enemy wearing ice armor. This can add a little skill, especially in the PvE aspect, but if you're looking to add skill to PvP combat, all this will do is increase the importance of equipment, and add an un-necessary meta game.

Gesture spell-casting is another possibility, but as others have said, in competitive PvP it will be macroed.

IMO the best way to add skill, and make the game more fun is to put the skill in the actual act of combat. (that is, it won't matter as much what the player has farmed, or what he knows about the lore of the game) There are plenty of good ways to do this.

One way that is commonly used is spell rotation, target selection, and managing limited mana or other resources. This is most important in PvE combat, 2d games, and traditional RPGs. For example, the player would want to choose which enemies to attack first, (those with lowest hitpoints/highest damage output) and aim in such a way so as to hit multiple enemies. Also, the player would be limited in some sense (either mana pool or money for reagents) so that he can't just spam his best spell in every fight. Spell rotation would also be a factor (ex: use debuffs or dmaage over times first, then burst damage as the enemy gets low on hitpoints).

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For a competitive PvP game, the skill should be mostly in aiming the spells. The most important thing you can do to add skill is to not enable auto-targeting in your game, the player should never be able to click on a moving target and simply press buttons to shoot spells at it. One of the best recent examples of an mmorpg with skilled magical combat is Darkfall Online, which is basically a first person shooter for the mage. However, there are ways to simulate the skill while still having the top-down 3rd person view of a standard 3d (or even 2d) RPG. To do this, you need either directional spells or ground are of effect spells. For directional spells, they would shoot out in a straight line or cone shape from the caster, so that the player would have to turn his character so that his spells will hit. For ground AoE spells, the player targets an area on the ground (rather than another unit) and after a short delay, the spell hits that area and does damage to anything in it. (once he knows how long the spell takes to reach its target, a player could easily hit a unit moving in a straight line, a zig-zagging unit would be more difficult to hit) Another possible method of spell aiming is to allow the player to adjust the power behind the magical projectile, as well as the direction, to launch it varrying distances in an arc (see the popular flash game "Tanks" to see what I mean).

No matter what you do you're going to have to do a lot of work. Going any way will not give you a shortcut.

If you want FPS mechanics you're going to spend a time optimizing every aspect of your client/server stream, and isolating every calculation you can.

If you want a dynamic spell generation system you're going to spend time to write dynamic XML/Object reading, storage, and processing.

Is it possible for a gesture system to be both precise enough to capture large numbers of spells, but generous enough to be easy to master? I'm particularly thinking about a system in which counterspells have to be selected quickly, and in a multiplayer game so it wouldn't be pausable.

The large spell count problem is something I think most interfaces are going to have. I find the hotbar at the bottom of the screen thing to be annoying even for a small spell count, never mind when you have to scroll through multiple bars to get to the spell you want. There are other systems, NWN2's was better, although NWN's layered radial menus were awful.

One of my personal favorite games, Final Fantasy Tactics, had an interesting way of mixing in player skill into spellcasting with the CT and AT concept.

Basically every spell is tied to a wait time which is dependant on the speed of the spell and the speed of the other characters. Stronger spells have higher wait times, and since you are vulnerable while charging up a spell, there is much strategy to be had while making spell decisions.

Translating this concept into an MMO or other non-turn based game could be implemented in a system similar to that of Fable 2. In Fable 2 each spell had a charge up time that increased if you wanted a more powerful spell. you sacrificed precious time in battle for a more powerful effect. There are some situations where a lesser, quicker spell is needed, and other opportunities to bring out the big guns.

In short, make it so casting a powerfull spell is difficult. The player should need time to focus the energies needed to cast an elite level spell, and making large spells more risky/rewarding is the way to go.

IMO anyone looking to develop an ability system should look at TF2. In particular their push maps and the role of engineers.

A traditional MMO may not have the opportunity to create exactly that type of strategic situation but the basic elements for a more interesting and engaging fight are there. One could also look to DOTA, a WC3 custom game for ideas.

IMO the key is to change the type of fight that is happening. A simple duel will always just be a duel.

Its not just a question of magic(or combat abilities) its a general question of
ones understanding of strategy(before combat decision) and tactic(incombat descisions).

Were as the worst case is a system like:

strategy=predifined stategies(encyclopedic knowledge of when to do use what)
tactic=none
circumstantional information =none (encyclopedic^2 now you even have to memorize a monster compendium etc)

improved variants are:

strategy
= free combination of spells/abilities
= customizable spells/abilities (to fit spells to ones own playstyle)
= script or puzzle system for spells(designing spells from basic aspects)
= " + spellset choice before combat(limited number of spells in combat chose a mix)

tactic
= (no real choice) correct execution: of strategies, learning the controls, timing etc.
= (no real choice) optimization: there is still one right way but it needs experience to know the best order an quantity of spells.
= (no real choice) adjustable spells: optimization^2 now this might really need some expereience to get a hang of.
Note: with variables that change where the optimum is this becomes even more challenging, but beware your information policy.
= the real choice: there are multiple choices with equal value, which however may influence your future choices or have additional future effects
also there are multiple ways to implement a strategy. Additionally based on your enemies behaviour and outer circumstances the value of choices may change
change so that you have to adapt to the situation.(this is alot about quick judegement, insight and guessing your enemy right)


circumstantional information
= full information: this leads either to more encyclopedic knowledge or to building up good estimations.
= partial information: This is all about filling the gaps with experience and learning correct risiko management and estimation.
= partial and hinted information: This adds a need of deductional or observational skill to get the information of the parameters
influencing your spells and such your decisions to use them.


Note: To make choices you need knowledges otherwises you only make random guesses and parameter influencing your spell become just hidden annoyances.



Also note a script and puzzle system only works if you have enough effects to create, if your only effect is doing damage and your physics system
does not allow for other parameters it gets difficult.
On the other hand you can work alot with conditions for effect activation, volume of space enemy has to be in(stationary or in relation to you)
window of time effect can be activated, enemy status, action you have to perform or enemy has to perform, number and spatial distribution of enemies
(think of chain lightning) state of the environment.
A mage could basically work like someone trying to lure his prey into a trap, he prepares one or two big spells that can take out, or almost take out
an enemy and then he has anumber of conditions to met for the spells to activate, and all other spells and actions are only to achieve those conditions
before the enemy succeeds in killing you.
Also enchantmnets that not simply increase your attributes but give you new options(of movement for example) or severally redistribute your attributes
to adapt to an situation can add strategical and tactical depth.

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Original Post by bardbarienne Sorry - I thought the similarity was really amusing. :)

Not surprising as I was watching Stargate when I though "This would be cool in Neverwinter Nights...". So the similarity was intentional. :D

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The system is trivial if you are giving the mages a language only to have the language result in the same effect as clicking the spell's picture in WoW. The system is useful if you give them the ability to customize the spells a little.

Yes, the idea was to be able to customise the spell, but not just in the effect. I was also meaning that you could customise the source and target as well.

In the case where you might be fighting several goblins, you probably wouldn't target each goblin by name (but you could if you wanted to). You would, instead, target a location (area effect).

SO the target phrase might read like this:

[target location] 5 metres in front

or like this:

[target object] Grunty the Goblin

In the first case, you wouldn't need to know the "name" of the targets, the effect would be centred at that point. However, in the second case, the effect would still work as in the first one, you are just being more precise about the target.

You might even get access to new words that can be used for targeting (eg: [Target Object] first enemy within 5 metres in front)

The way you specify the targets might end up having an effect on how the spell works. So instead of having different spell effects for a lightning bolt that zaps one target and a chain lightening spell that zaps multiple targets, you would instead have this as differences in the targeting/subject phrase (eg [first enemy] as opposed to [all enemies]).

Of course, these more powerful words will take more resources to use.

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Certain energy type words can be combined with others to simulate different elements - for example, Water + Earth = Mud, Fire + Earth = Lava, Water + Wind = Storm. And perhaps higher levels result in being able to combine more energy type words - at level 25 you can start combining using two words, three words at level 50, four at 75. Maybe Water + Wind + Illusion creates the illusion of a storm to throw off anyone in the air, maybe Control + Flight + Dark lets you control one of your enemies while it's flying, and gives all its attacks the Dark attribute. Maybe Fire + Earth + Summon lets you summon the spirit of a volcano, Erfworld style!

I wanted to get away from combining things in this manner as it made the system a bit mechanical. The idea was to make magic mysterious.

It would also make it much easier to add in new effects, just by adding in a new item or action.

Outside of games, Magic is seen as mysterious because it defies rationality. If you create a system in a game where by Magic is like chemistry (mix A with B to get C), then it looses that mysterious quality.

By using the principals of language (although a formal language) to allow the player to describe the effect, then the specific "sentence" that causes the effect can be different between players (or even each time the player uses that spell).

you cautioned against creating spells that were the equivalent of "the same effect as clicking the spell's picture in WoW", but then you go on to describe a system where it works in that exact way.

Sure, in my system there will be "efficient" ways of creating a spell, but as parts of the spell will change depending on the situation (in one place you might be channelling energy from an environmental source, but in another you might be using the same energy but from a place where it is stored). Or it might be that the way you target the spell is different (location targeted rather than at a specific item).

Basically, only the "Effect" part (the verb) will ever really be able to be "clicked on", and even then you might be able to change it on the fly as needed (smaller area, different energy type, etc).

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If reagents stack in the inventory (which I'm sure they do), how do you differentiate between goblin-killing dog tongues and the regular sort? Do they appear in a different slot? Could you potentially have a whole inventory full of dog tongues with specific strengths?

That is a good question, and is mainly an interface question (as opposed to a gameplay question).

As an off the cuff way of doing it, I would have each slot act as a sort of "container". When placing similar objects in a slot, they would be placed in this container, and when you select that slot the container opens up.

So you can manipulate them as a single object, but then you can delve into that group to select an individual item.

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How do you make this system so that wizards don't need to go crafting in four different areas to get bonuses for all the enemies found in one dungeon?

That is part of the idea. Players will be able to find a market for such object. They might find out that dog tongues collected form the "Howling Wastes" are good as reagents in spells against Skeletons. So they travel to the Howling Wastes to collect them for sale.

Another player decides that they are going to the Skeleton's Crypt, but they don't want to have to go to the Howling Wastes themselves, so they go and buy the Tongues from the marketplace.

This will encourage crafting (of reagents) and trade between players (at least magic using players).

But, yes, not in all cases. Many player will go out seeking these reagents themselves rather than buying them, but the time involved might be more than they want to put into that (and Dog Tongues might be fairly common in the Howling Wastes so there is always a surplus coming out of there).

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Distance and point of origin for spells, I would say that's handled by point-and-click and targeting. You can be as far away from the point of origin of your spell as you like, but being farther away takes more mana. Some (monstrously rare) items might be able to let you use certain abilities from an infinite distance, like Life or Teleport.

As I said, there would be multiple ways of targeting the same spell and this could be one of them. This kind of targeting might require a specific item/reagent to use. It might be that you have to go up and hit the target creature with the item (a melee attack), or throw it at them (ranged attack), just point it in their direction (click on the target), or even just having the item (a piece of the target creature like a vial of their blood) could be used to set a target.

This could even be different depending on the spell being cast. So the "twisted Wand" might only need to be pointed at the target if you are casting a "Magic Missile" spell, but if you want the "Death touch" spell, then the "Twisted Wand" might need to actually hit the target in a melee attack to complete the spell properly.

This would simply be a matter of having the effect/verb part of the spell have an influence of what target details are used. It would put a [Target Object] [Last touched by the Twisted Wand] into the spell sentence. When the spell is resolved, the [Last touched by the Twisted Wand] is read from the details on the Twisted Wand.

To do this, the Twisted Wand object has to be able to remember such details and therefore would be included as part of the objects design in the code/script (as I said, this is all about being able to detect various actions and store/retrieve information about them in various locations). It is not very hard to do this in code (I had to do it for the Rune Gate system. and that was with the constraints of the underlying system already in place and not designed for such uses).

The basis of the system is to detect and store the results of various actions. then when the player does a certain set of actions (casts a spell - click on the effect buttons) the system reads these variables and construct details of the spell from them.

You can even have these "buttons" as actions that the game detects to trigger the spell effect.

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If you want to increase the radius of your cylindrical spell, just keep holding the mouse button down. For some shapes, holding the button lengthens the spell duration instead - if you're shooting a ray of lightning, Palpatine-style, you can't really change the range once you've hit someone, so instead you just keep shocking them until something interrupts you or you run out of mana.

Actually you are implementing something similar to what I was saying in this instance. By holding down the mouse button longer, you are detecting an action of the player and then using that information to modify the result of the spell. In my method however, this action does not have to be at the point of spell release (doing so only limits you to that one action as you trigger the spell), but can be done over a period of time that build up into the spell.

So you could have one part of the spell require you to hold the button down to set some data about the spell, then later you might need to click on a certain spot, or then move the mouse quickly to the side.

By each action storing some data about that action in some location, you are later able to read that data and use it for some aspect of the spell.

It is also important to remember the KISS principle.

It is important not only for the playability but for balancing.

IMO it is better to offer the player a small number of real choices that interact with the abilities of their enemies in interesting ways then to offer a very complex system that just ends up being overly combersome to play and poorly balanced.

Players Skill Use would be :

Knowing the effects of tools given to the player and possible interactions
of objects

Preparation (including versatility) for actual operations

Reading a situation (including movement patterns) to predict results
and then using the tools appropriately to get desired results.

Ability to compensate and adapt when the results arent quite as expected

If multiplayer then skill in dealing with other players to cooperate/coordinate




Game situations would be created as 3 dimentional puzzles which the player has to solve. Complex interactions of objects need to be consistantly resolved and portrayed to the player (sometimes what cant be seen is what makes the challenge -- with the player (using skill) dealing with uncertainty factors)

Being an internet (non twitch) game the player has to be given sufficient time
to carry out actions and to observe results AND to even compensate in the middle of the solution (contingencies...)


Many of the MMORPGs have elements of this, except for lack of the complexity of the situations (add interactive terrain, more varied reactive behaviors of NPCs,
arbitration of effects and their magnitudes...)