Quote: Original post by ZaphrodBeeblebrox
For example, take a space game that has several levels that need sci-fi sounds and the customer is not sure exactly what would fit it, and is looking for composers to make the sounds. He'll probably hear this.
Composer 1: "Okay, I see, I'll offer XX sound effects, for XX dollars"
Composer 2: "Okay, I see, I'll offer YY sound effects, for YY dollars, I've done sci-fi before, here, look at my portfolio"
Composer 3: "Okay, I see, I can give you several references for sound effects that I think would fit you, and then we can discuss what from the references sound good, and what we should do to make sounds that really fit these levels"

Composer 3, is definitely the winner. Not because they offered a lower price, but because they offered something that seems like it'll make the project a success.

Are you honestly suggesting that some composers would just state a rate instead of giving you any references for this level? I find that very unlikely based on the composers/sound designers that I know and work with. Most are so eager for work that they'll gladly provide reference/test material for you to evaluate. Other thing to keep in mind that some of the reference materials can likely come from a demo reel or assets they've created in the past. You seem to dismiss the demo reel's function and pros rather quickly.

I know many American composers that already do this. In fact I often see young(er) composers willing to do a full score for FREE just for the opportunity and exposure! So I really don't feel that the situation you're illustrating is what is actually happening... at least from my experience with a wide variety of composers and clients. Plus I know of many clients (US and abroad) that have their prospective composers (or sound designers) do audio tests that use content from their game to see if they're a good fit or not. The key here is context. If I may be so bold, I feel that you misinterpret someone's intent or actions and draw negative conclusions from this. For example when you state:

Quote: Original post by ZaphrodBeeblebrox
Also, many quote "industry-standard rates" it like it's something they're owed.

Nobody is saying they're owed anything. Most likely they're giving you a reference point. This is the going rate for service X but I'll charge you Y. As I stated in an earlier post this gives the client a reference point.

At the start I'll offer up my rates and my usual bit about who I am and what I can do. What you're talking about (from the quoted section above) usually comes a bit later after the introductions are made and the company is narrowing down who they want to pick. Yet you seem to fault US composers with regards to their introductions. They're just an introduction. I couldn't possibly give you a bunch of reference sounds that I think would work well for your game until I've played a bit of the game, seen some concept art and heard about the plot and niche that the game is attempting to fill. That doesn't usually happen until later in the process and after an NDA.

What awesome game studio do you work for anyway?

Thanks,

Nate

[Edited by - nsmadsen on September 3, 2009 5:46:25 PM]

I agree with Nate's viewpoints. Although I don't have experience in the business of this type of field, I can tell from the way Nate talks about it that he is very conscientious of his clients, and the way he conducts his business; no doubt the result from his fair-share of mistakes.

It seems as though Zaphrod (which, correct me if I'm wrong, should actually "Zaphod" from the book,) has a predisposition toward "US Composers," and instead of providing a helpful thread for those who wish to learn more, is in effect, illustrating this message: "Offshore composers are better, US composers just do things wrong."

I get the sense that just because I live in the US, I shouldn't even bother - if all the jobs are going to go overseas anyway, right?

This thread feels less helpful, and more accusatory.

jjandreau- AMEN!

I started with the attitude of let's hear what this guy has to say but have ended up feeling more accused, stereotyped and frustrated by ZaphrodBeeblebrox's statements and opinions. Don't get me wrong, he's completely entitled to them... as is everyone.

Some of ZaphrodBeeblebrox's statements do not come off well and almost promote a lack of understanding with how the industry and specifically game audio operate. I'm not trying to be insulting and perhaps he truly has had many negative experiences with composers... but I'd fault that more on his (and the company's) methods of recruiting and less on American composers as a whole. Not only is that massive stereotyping it can be easily proven false by the network of fantastic, professional and very hard working composers here in America as well as abroad. There will always be bad apples. There will always be composers that give our industry a bad name. It's the job of the freelancers to do our best (and from my experience a majority of them do) and it's the job of the client to search for the best ones. If the client is having negative interactions with freelancers then they should re-evaluate how and where they're searching for crew members.

I don't know ZaphrodBeeblebrox nor do I know what company he works for... but he hasn't done a very good job of promoting himself or his company here. I agree with jjandreau- ZaphrodBeeblebrox didn't do a very good job of making this thread helpful. It reads much more like a rant.

[Edited by - nsmadsen on September 3, 2009 5:15:01 PM]

Quote: Original post by nsmadsen
jjandreau- AMEN!

I started with the attitude of let's hear what this guy has to say but have ended up feeling more accused, stereotyped and frustrated by ZaphrodBeeblebrox's statements and opinions. Don't get me wrong, he's completely entitled to them... as is everyone.

Some of ZaphrodBeeblebrox's statements do not come off well and almost promote a lack of understanding with how the industry and specifically game audio operate. I'm not trying to be insulting and perhaps he truly has had many negative experiences with composers... but I'd fault that more on his (and the company's) methods of recruiting and less on American composers as a whole. Not only is that massive stereotyping it can be easily proven false by the network of fantastic, professional and very hard working composers here in America as well as abroad. There will always be bad apples. There will always be composers that give our industry a bad name. It's the job of the freelancers to do our best (and from my experience a majority of them do) and it's the job of the client to search for the best ones. If the client is having negative interactions with freelancers then they should re-evaluate how and where they're searching for crew members.

I don't know ZaphrodBeeblebrox nor do I know what company he works for... but he hasn't done a very good job of promoting himself or his company here. I agree with jjandreau- ZaphrodBeeblebrox didn't do a very good job of making this thread helpful. It reads much more like a rant.

Was this a somehow competition about who's right/wrong? I'm just stating my experience and opinions, and I think it's turned into an emotional thing for some people on the thread.

I guess what the point really boils down to is that in a global economy, service providers in 1st world countries have to work harder to beat the offers of their offshore counterparts if they want to compete with them. For a commodity service like Music, Art, and even complex console, nexgen, or MMO game programming these days, someone will be there to underbid you in price, so you have to outbid them in level of service.

And in terms of offer, offer something awesome! Don't be a slave or undersell yourself, just bring something that fits the customer's needs in a way someone who's cheaper (or who's the same price) isn't. One of the big advantages in any 1st world country is that you get most everything about the culture. You can use that to your advantage to understand requirements, form a good relationship with people, and then tailor your offer to their needs exactly.

So I've said my bit :), good day.

It does get emotional when you refer to music as a "commodity," like some sort of condiment that you dabble on your hamburger to make it taste better.

I still don't understand what this recurring motif of "you have to be better" has to do with "pleasing or angering" the customer.

If we really want to dance around, I could say that game developers are really just a luxury, as music stimulates growth emotional, kinesthetic, and developmental growth - proven to help students exceed in all areas of academia.

Quote: Original post by ZaphrodBeeblebrox
For a commodity service like Music, Art, and even complex console, nexgen, or MMO game programming these days, someone will be there to underbid you in price, so you have to outbid them in level of service.

I think you are going to alienate a lot of people with the word "commodity".

It's amazing that this word should pop up now because during a break on the sessions I described above, a few of us who also had experience in the TV commercial and jingle world were discussing the game industry. We all agreed that it was a bad sign that the business of game music was growing in the direction of TV commercials.

In the TV commercial industry, music is handled as a commodity. It's treated like meat at a market to be sliced off by the pound. A commodity is merely a product of nature, and in the marketplace little thought is given to its creation. Its value is merely determined by scarcity and the cost of bringing it to market.

This perception has led to composers being at the bottom of the food chain in TV commercials. It has also degraded the creativity, originality, and quality of music in TV commercials over the last 10-20 years. Sadly, most people in the game industry don't have breadth of experience to recognize the loss of value to the industry that is brought on by this approach.

This is why you're receiving hostility towards your postings. The premise of the postings seems incorrect to many people who create music and sound, but they have a hard time articulating exactly why. That's partly because the creators themselves have difficulty understanding the issue because they often buy into the "commodity" idea themselves believing that is what their clients want.

The commodity mentality is what creates the simplistic idea that X number of sound effects or minutes of music equals Y dollars. A commodity is just a an economic good that has an "industry standard" or "market" rate. This works fine if you license or purchase effects or music from a library where the creator is not part of the process, and you are just buying from a middleman.

If you directly hire a composer or sound designer, you are actually hiring the unique skills and expertise of an individual. This is very different from the simple purchase of an existing commodity. The creator is a craftsman who creates a unique, customized product and provides a unique service. The creator is just as much a part of the product as the raw materials. Referring to the product as a commodity devalues the creator and drives good talent elsewhere.

[Edited by - Muzo72 on September 4, 2009 10:29:58 AM]

Quote: Original post by ZaphrodBeeblebrox
Was this a somehow competition about who's right/wrong?

No, it's just a discussion. If you were not interested in having an open discussion about this then you probably should not have posted it on an open forum! :P

Quote: Original post by ZaphrodBeeblebrox
I'm just stating my experience and opinions, and I think it's turned into an emotional thing for some people on the thread.

Well look at it from our stance:

1) Your first post was also the first day you joined. So this is our first impression of you.

2) You proceed to lecture us about what you feel US composers do. What kind of reaction did you except? While I agree with some of your points, I will share my disagrements with you and discuss them. Isn't that one of the points of a forum? To share ideas and discuss?

Sub point to number 2: Many of your points can apply to freelancers of any discipline from all around the globe. Your profile says your from the UK. I guarantee I could find composers with poor customer service skills and/or higher than needed rates. Does this prove anything about UK composers? No. And yet you insist on pointing your whole argument towards US composers. That isn't logical.

3) Many of your statements don't really make sense. There will always be cheaper competition out there. Does this really mean I can't charge what I feel is fair based on my credentials, ability and setup? No. You feel that by stating what the industry standard is that US composers are saying we're owed a certain amount. No. Besides every single business states what it is going to charge for a product or service. Do you go to the grocery store and agrue with the sales clerk about how they feel they're owed this price for fruit? I doubt it. So why do you do this with freelancers? (The answer, I suspect, is because you've grown acustomed to ripping them off or haggling to the Nth degree and not paying what is really fair.) You say that credentials like higher degrees (such as bachelors, masters and PhD programs) and past credits (like on a established console or IP) don't really matter. No.

4) You have yet to state what company or projects you've taken part in. Many of us are very open about our credentials and history. This makes it easier for folks to compare that to what we say and make a balanced evaluation of both our points and of us as workers. I guess I'm getting kinda wordy... what I mean is we'd take your opinions and statement much easier if you provided some context. To just say that you work at an awesome game studio doesn't really mean much. I have no idea what caliber this studio is. I have no idea who you are. I have no idea what type(s) of games you've been a part of. So for me when you make all of these claims that directly conflict with many of my experiences with other composer-sound designers... it can leave a sour taste in my mouth. Judging by the other reactions on this thread... I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

Quote: Original post by ZaphrodBeeblebroxOne of the big advantages in any 1st world country is that you get most everything about the culture. You can use that to your advantage to understand requirements, form a good relationship with people, and then tailor your offer to their needs exactly.

What does this even mean? I get "most everything about the culture" because I'm in the US? And if my clients are international then does that mean I'll understand or be in the best position to fill that need being an American? You, not us, seem to be putting US composers are some kind of pestistal and distorting the reality of the situation.

Key question: You keep citing off shore, cheaper composers... but you never point out their credentials (which do matter by the way, sorry). A better argument would be to study composers from all over with similar backgrounds and credentials then compare and constrast their rates. This would give you a better example. Without doing this you could be comparing a recent high school graduate with 3 indie game credits to a ten year, established professional composer. This is not equal, not good science and is definitely apples to oranges.

Thanks,

Nate

[Edited by - nsmadsen on September 5, 2009 9:31:31 AM]