I am working on developing a web-based RPG and I am trying to figure out a way to make a job system that doesn't take virtual money out of the system, but rather exchanges it from one user to another more like in real life. I want one user to be able to hire another user, so that both profit in some way. Has this been done before, and does anyone have any ideas how this could be accomplished if not?

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[Edited by - Awoken on September 15, 2009 7:38:19 PM]

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Original post by Awoken "so that both profit in some way!" Depends on what you mean by "profit". If you mean one player is able to accumulate capital (i.e, money, currency, gold, etc) and another player accumulates some sort of material possession (i.e, housing, tools, food, etc). Then yes this is possible; however, if you want both players to accumulate capital then this is not possible. In any functioning economy, wealth needs to transfer up the pyramid of wealth, and the only way a functioning economy can work with all players accumulating capital profit, is if there is insane inflation, which renders the profit worthless. Having a fixed amount of currency in your virtual world for players to exchange will create a mini-economy. If you wish to actually achieve this goal, you'll need to do alot of reading into how the economy works.

I know how the economy works and of course I don't mean they both get currency.

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[Edited by - Awoken on September 15, 2009 7:07:30 PM]

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Original post by AwokenIn any functioning economy, wealth needs to transfer up the pyramid of wealth

DIE bourgeoisie pig!

Sorry, couldn't help it. On a more serious note, this is only true for a capitalist system. There are other economic models, but if your motivation is profit, then a capitalist system is the way to go. I think an RPG may actually be more interesting with an alternative to the standard format, however - we've seen and lived in enough of the capitalist system, lets see something new for a change.

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and the only way a functioning economy can work with all players accumulating capital profit, is if there is insane inflation, which renders the profit worthless.

Only if the profit in question is equal to or less than the inflation rate. Nominal value, when considering the consequence of inflation, is rather indeterminant. It's better to look at things in terms of real value (but that's hard, because what good/resource will you use?) and model economic systems off of that.

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Having a fixed amount of currency in your virtual world for players to exchange will create a mini-economy. If you wish to actually achieve this goal, you'll need to do alot of reading into how the economy works.

Economics is fairly simple. Closed economies are possible, but only if you actually close your economy and don't "semi-close" it.

How in depth of a discussion do you want on this? If you want a simple answer, then I would say motivate players not by experience points, but by currency. "The grind" then becomes accumulating currency. Then give players reasons to pay other players. Remove the protection most games offer from pvp. Now players need to pay escorts. Remove the grind-for-good-lootz factor of the equipment equation - make players have to make it (in steps, with different players specializing at each step), transport it, and sell it. Now the ore smiths will pay the miners for their work, and the armor smiths will pay the ore smiths, and the fighters will pay the armor smiths, ect.

One thing: if a player sells to an NPC don't send the gold to outerspace. NPCs must have finite gold - exactly as much as players have bought from them minus what players have sold to them. If you don't plug this hole, you can never have a closed economy.

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Original post by Zouflain Quote: Having a fixed amount of currency in your virtual world for players to exchange will create a mini-economy. If you wish to actually achieve this goal, you'll need to do alot of reading into how the economy works. Economics is fairly simple. Closed economies are possible, but only if you actually close your economy and don't "semi-close" it. ***snip***

You still however have the issue of new players - a closed economy such as you are proposing assumes a fixed population, and doesn't account for the starting capital given to new players. Especially in the face of the issues many games have in killing off abandoned accounts, this makes the system very hard to stabilise.

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[Edited by - Awoken on September 15, 2009 7:06:42 PM]

An auction system is a tried and true way for everyone to feel like a winner on the internet. Let players create "quests" and contracts that other players can accept or even bid on.

"I need all this lumber taken from the sawmill to my job site, I'll pay one copper per board that arrives safely. Three coppers collateral per board will be required for any part of the task you sign on to perform."

That way, a passing player could see the job posted, pay nine coins to get three boards, filling his inventory, then turn them in at the destination for twelve coins, scoring a cool 3 coppers profit. The carpenter can pay that money in exchange for not having to waste time and effort on unskilled labor when he could be getting better margins actually plying his trade, and everyone wins.

This requires that labor actually serves as a commodity in the game, though. EvE Online never got it right, since people demand a certain pay grade for their time, and it's almost always easier to just play for another twenty minutes and do it yourself. In a system where work is limited, like the action point-heavy Urban Dead game, subcontracting would be far more appealing. You could spend your real-world play time writing up the deals, and that would allow you to put your in-game "character hours" to more effective use.

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Original post by swiftcoder ***snip***

You still however have the issue of new players - a closed economy such as you are proposing assumes a fixed population,That is the difference between closed and semiclosed. A closed system automatically compensates for the influx or outflow of players. I actually could have went in detail about it, but again, how much of an analysis is the OP looking for?

Still, if you feel it's necessary... In a closed system, new players do not recieve money, and old player's currency is reinjected into the system. The two best models are a linear fixed rate (ie, same for everyone) tax over time, or a compound tax with time spent away from play. The linear feels most fair, but
is most annoying for someone who is only gone for a few days. Compound means that a few days has relatively little impact, but a month or year (depending on the model) would likely mean starting from 0 currency again. That, like I said, is a simple way of closing the economy. It can be seen, however, as a punishment for players who like to go on vacation. Once a player leaves the game, with a system such as this, it would be very difficult to get them to return, even if they were so inclined.

@Awoken: Alright, in any case where an item is sold and both parties walk away with more currency than they started with, there will be inflation... but that model makes no sense.

@Iron Chef Carnage as an avid Eve player who had to deal with mercenaries who were hired to deal with me, I would say you either didn't have enough experience, or spent all your time in high sec space. Eve did it very well, centralized auction houses are actually very terrible market models, because they eliminate a large portion of the trading class concept (buy low/sell high), they cause global competition (local is better, because you have less competitors and price fluctuations between regions, where again traders can take advantage). There's nothing wrong with an auction but no auction houses, no global distribution of information. First, players should be paying (in effort, or currency for someone else to spend that effort) or at the very least forging contacts to learn information about distant areas.

Don't take this to mean that global/centralized auction houses don't work, because WoW clearly demonstrates that they do, at least for a casual game. If you want "player jobs" then try to create opportunities for players to take advantage of them. That means market manipulation, information constriction, interdependency between players, ect. And global/centralized auction houses act directly against this.

Note to the OP: We've discussed inflation with respect to currency, but have you considered the decline in scarcity of goods over time? In reality, no good is eternal - it breaks down and is discarded. In a video game, this usually doesn't happen (the magic NPC can repair anything that does break back up to 100%). If you close your economy perfectly, then you will face runaway deflation unless the amount of goods in game stays the same as well. Be sure that players aren't killing slimes for useless loot, otherwise that loot will become so common that it's value drops to zero. What will newbies kill for cash if the slime loot is useless? How will they earn their first penny?

I suggest making all drops - yes, every single drop - useful, and used in such a way that causes their destruction. Rather than "generic torn armor" drops, drop potion ingredients, ore, or some other useful but expendable good. The best results come about when High Level players require thousands upon thousands of low level drops. They can never get enough by themselves, but there's always a horde of money hungry newbies ready and willing to sell their otherwise worthless slime drop.

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Original post by ZouflainEve did it very well...

I think you misunderstood. I was saying EvE never made cooperation on mundane tasks, like hauling or production, particularly worthwhile. Unless it required a huge capital investment (T2 production, capital shipyards), you're better off hauling your own ore/trade goods rather than putting up a contract to get the job done, since nobody will accept a hauling contract doesn't destroy your profits by paying them as much as they'd get from a level 4 mission or a half-hour of shooting Angel Seraphims. And I lived in Feythabolis for over a year, so bite me.