Hey guys, been having this idea for a game for a while and I was hoping to get some feedback. Mainly because... well I'm planning on doing this on my own (I know, stupid but hey I can always try) as far as alpha goes. I don't really have a team members to discuss ideas. Maybe when I have something that will actually look like it will finish I will call in some extra help, but so far I'm doing this on my own. Anyways, my idea is to create a multiplayer online tactical rts. Think Advancewars, turn based with unit and resources at it's core. I want it to start simple and not to complex but extendability in mind for more complexion once done. The game will be on the client side Flash (and hopefully in the end a website that goes along with it) and on the server side the Google App Engine. I know not the best choice, but the turn based gameplay allows for more grouped packages of data. Besides, the App Engine is free (till x amount of calls) and scalable, which makes it a cool platform to try this out with. It can always be rewritten to another server if really needed. Basic concept The theme will bees/wasps, using a hexagonal grid for tiles set in a more fantasy oriented setting. You control a colony of bees trying to collect lifesseed. These lifesseed do not really have a large meaning so far other then indicating score. I'm still thinking what I could do with it other then making it into a resource. Each player will collect nectar which can be spend to create units or "buildings". Nectar is gathered from the world itself but needs to refined before it's usable. Visual style The graphics are yet to be fleshed out, as I said earlier: I'm trying to make an alpha version (with crappy graphics) first that has all the gameplay elements. However that doesn't mean I hadn't thought about it. Graphics will purely 2D, having bright colors like what you see in games like Mario. It will take place in this world populated by humanoid bees mostly covered with large plants and lot's of nectar pools. Game concept The game will be mostly multiplayer (apart from a tutorial maybe) with matches from 2 to 4 players, each trying to win the others lifepoints. You win when the queen is killed form all the opposing players or when they surrender. There are normal deathmatch matches and a king-of-the-hill scenario in which the player needs to cap a Life Stone. The king-of-the-hill matches are used for the high-ranking battles. Game will be played on different maps, I already created a basic editor that can created hexagonal based maps. Maybe some can be even created by players. Nectar will be the resource to create buildings and workers. Workers however need an egg too, these are created by the Queen. Each turn she creates a couple of eggs. Adding slaves to the Queen will allow her to create more eggs. At least until the egg-cap is reached The following buildings can be created: Nectar Farm, used for processing the raw nectar. It needs a couple of workers but after that it gives an amount of nectar each turn. The more workers the more nectar each turn Hatchery, the eggs that the are created by the queen are gathered here. Each Hatchery raises the egg-cap. Weaponry, workers can be trained to attackers or commanders. Each time you want to change a worker into an attacker it will cost nectar. With each turn the player can spend an amount of action points so he can move, build or an other action. These points will be more, the more buildings you have (same as in advance wars). Each unit has a range he can move and movement costs action points. This will limit the player to stack up large amounts of nectar from the start and the rush into the opponent. Units can be grouped to a maximum of 5 units per squad. Each unit has at least one skill he can use, some benefit the single unit, or the whole squad. Also squads allow for less space on the map. Target Audience Not so sure yet, my idea was around 16 years and older. But depends on the visual style mainly. The gameplay should be quite competitive, which is also something for older age group. Tech Like I said, the Google App Engine as server, using the Python CGI environment. I'm most comfortable and have more experience with Python then Java so yeah, Python it is. Client side will be mostly Flash. This means all calls will be HTTP. I am aware of the fact that both are not the best option to make a multiplayer game with but I have most experience with the web. I'm still not 100% sure if the latency will be to high but I will see in the end. The game is not that high pace, so that would make latency a little less obvious and irritating. Furthermore, building a game server using sockets requires very custom hosting which is pricey, something I want to limit. There, that is about the idea I have. Any feedback is welcome as long as I can do something with it :p. Greets, Yannick

I don't know much about the Google App engine, so I can't really comment on the implementation/architecture details. However you seem to have thought this through and I'm confident that this is certainly a workable system (.even if not optimal)

Your gameplay sounds mostly solid and successful precedent exists with games like AW, and the bee theme sounds like it can twisted to match the gameplay without too much difficulty (especially as bees have a well defined system of specialisation and "rank"), so I'll focus on the more unique mechanics:

There are no varied combat units? This is a potential stumbling block as it reduces tactical depth considerably and results in a more purely strategic game - this is, after all, the difference between checkers and chess. I get the impression that you may be planning to have more than one kind of combat unit but haven't expanded on them in your post?

Exactly how does combat play out? Do units have health like AW or is the outcome more binary? Are all fights "to the death" or is there a damage cap per attack? Is there interactivity here or simply "attack"/"don't attack"?

What types of skills do you envision? Will they have an active affect on combat, or represent more passive (statistical, back-end) boosts to units?

Does adding a commander to a squad basically act as some sort of buff? Typically we see commander units providing a general increase in strength, morale (less chance of units becoming scared and refusing to fight) or adding some special ability (such as healing)

Well as I said I want to start simple and make it more complex once I have everything sorted out and a working game. So more varied combat units are planned just not in my scope yet.

As for combat, I was thinking of doing something similar to AW. Each unit has HP, squad groups have an average HP. Attacking is done once units are next to each other like AW. Also planning on doing something with the attack animations etc like AW.
When a squad is damaged it is divided equally over the units. This will allow for unit specific talents to be still active in a squad, some unit will just not get as much damage.

I had 3 skills so far on paper, divided over the 3 units:
Worker: Repair -> +hp
Attacker: Furry -> +att (self) for 5 turns
Commanders: Squad Boost -> +att all 1 turn

Once preformed the unit is disabled (for that turn, like AW again :P). Basically adding a commander gives the squad the unique skill it has. But a general strength boost might not be a bad idea.

Feels a lot "like AW" from what you are saying.
Also I denote a few mechanics that are akin to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_the_Ants_(video_game)
What is the exact pace you want to develop?
AW for example is terribly quick and therefore cannot embody a lot of mechanics which would be underdeveloped in the heat of the action. Empire of the ants (although real-time) is on the very other end in terms of game pace and it does pack too much.
Also, have you thought about using larger masses and lose the HP count? Say you could produce 10 attackers at once, but each only needs to be hurt once to die, etc.

well I want the speed of AW sort of there. Because it is turn based, the other player(s) have to wait till you make your turn. I want to keep the speed there to minimize wait. I don't want to make it real time because of my server limitations. A weak excuse I know but that is the choice I made, I do not have the funds for a large game server so I'm trying to make the best of what I got available. Hey maybe in the end it can be done real time, we just have to see.

As for pace, it has to be seen when I have a working prototype. I'm trying to make gameplay elements as dynamic as possible for small tweeks to adjust pace and durations of matches.

So far the bee/wasp theme sounds good, something fresh and new.

Quote:

Target Audience Not so sure yet, my idea was around 16 years and older. But depends on the visual style mainly. The gameplay should be quite competitive, which is also something for older age group.

Well, here's just my opinion, but I think that your theme and target audience could be problem. The target audience does not depends mainly on the visual style but on the theme too.

I would see a bee/wasp scenario more attractive to (older, >30) causal gamers, maybe even attractive to equally women/men, which is completly desirable. But I don't think that this target audience is attracted by "quite competitive" gameplay, which is in my optinion more a younger, (male), hardcore gamers domain.

Although many people tends to wrinkle one's nose about a standard fantasy theme, orcs/goblins/elves/dwarves will completly change your audience. I know gamers who just play causal games because there're dwarves or orcs involved.

Just my two cents, as said, your theme sounds good, maybe you should consider a less competitive mode.

--
Ashaman

I have found a good way of helping me to develop the gameplay of a game is to list the challenges the player encounters in the game, and the actions they can take to overcome them. It can also help to categorise the challenges in broad terms (economic/collection, reaction, conflict, strategic, etc).

For example:

Pac-Man
Avoid ghosts (reaction): Move Pac Man
Avoid Ghosts (Strategic): Choose corridor
Gain Points (Economic): Collect Pellets
Kill Ghosts (Conflict): Powerup
Powerup (Economic): Collect Power Pellets
Complete Level (economic): Collect all pellets

As you can see, this is a good way of working out what players need to do in a game and why they have to do it. It is then possible to break this down further into mechanics and content (what the rules act on) that is used in each of these challenges.

@Ashaman73
well all depends how you poor the theme in there. If you make the bees more look like humans attached which cybernetics to imitate missing parts (think mechanical wings and stingers) the theme switches quite dramatic to when your making it all cute and cuddly anime styled.

Like I said before, I first want to make something that works then polish it up. I might even consider looking for someone to do the art (even though I'm quite capable of doing so myself) But until then it will mostly remain small shapes to indicate what should be there.

I been thinking a little about the theme and visuals, but so far no real decisions. It all depends on if they systems will work and I find enough motivation to finish it :p. I don't want to hype or ask favors to people for a game that isn't going to be finished (another reason why I'm doing this alone)

@Edtharan
I've got a good sense of what the gameplay elements will be. Most of them will revolve around strategic placement of units, using skills and buildings units and killing the other opponents queen. All the other elements are a result of those, nectar gathering so you can create units, killing units to get to the queen, etc, etc.

Quote:

I've got a good sense of what the gameplay elements will be. Most of them will revolve around strategic placement of units, using skills and buildings units and killing the other opponents queen. All the other elements are a result of those, nectar gathering so you can create units, killing units to get to the queen, etc, etc.

You do have a good list of things there, but I can see that it is not near complete (this could, of course, be because you are not going into much detail on the forums, but to me it looks a bit disorganised and that does seem like you still have much more to do on it).

From what I can see this is the basic list of challenges and actions:
Build Nectar Farm (economic): Spend resources to build the farm
Place Nectar Farm (strategic): Place the farm on the map
... for each building type

Build Workers (economic): This appears to happen automatically but it is not clear but use workers to increase rate
Increase Worker Cap (economic): Build Hatcheries

Create Warrior (economic): Spend resources and convert a worker at a hatchery
Create Commander (economic): Spend resources and convert a worker at a hatchery
... for each unit type

Gather Nectar: (economic): Assign worker to gather nectar
Convert Nectar into Resource (economic): Bring Nectar to a Nectar Farm building

Limited Actions (economic): Assign action to unit or building

Kill enemy units (conflict/strategic): Assign best unit to attack/defend

Win game (strategic): Kill all enemy Queen(s).

Of course this is based only on what you have posted and a bit of what I have inferred.

What is important, and why it is incomplete, is that although the challenges are fairly well defined, the actions of the player are not.

Giving the player a lot of challenges is good, but if you don't give them a way to attempt to overcome them then you don't really have a game.

But still, this is only the first step. You then have to break this down into the rules that govern these interactions, and then define these rules in terms of algorithms (not necessarily code, but the set of steps that must take place for them to occur).

hehe, yeah I have a tendency to get a little disorganized. Mostly because the idea lives in my head and I find it hard to put my thought into words.

As for what you posted, your have quite a complete list there. Let my correct and fill it to completion.

First, workers are not created automatically. They need to be hatched. Nectar however is generated by the Refineries. For each Refinery you have you will gain x amount of nectar per turn (the more workers at the Refinery, the more nectar per turn). Destroy all the opponents Refineries and he will have no more nectar incomes. This will make strategic placement more important.

Secondly, eggs are created by the queen automatically. The more workers you spend on her, the faster she creates eggs. (sorta the same as nectar only for creating units rather then buildings)

Lastly, you can only build next to your another building. This means you will build from out of the nest, preventing the possibility to build next to your opponent.

Build Refinery (economic): Spend resources to build the Refinery
Build Weaponry (economic): Spend resources to build the Weaponry
Build Hatchery(economic): Spend resources to build the Hatchery
Place Refinery (strategic): Place the Refinery on the map
Place Weaponry (strategic): Place the Weaponry on the map
Place Hatchery(strategic): Place the Hatchery on the map
Build Workers (economic): Spend resources to hatch an egg to create a worker
Assign worker to Refinery (economic): Increases nectar gather speed
Increase Worker Cap (economic): Build Hatcheries
Create Warrior (economic): Spend resources and convert a worker at a Weaponry
Create Commander (economic): Spend resources and convert a worker at a Weaponry
Limited Actions (economic): Assign action to unit or building
Kill enemy units (conflict/strategic): Assign best unit to attack/defend
Select skills for a unit (conflict/strategic): Trigger a boost/attack for a unit
Win game (strategic): Kill (well more of let her surrender, seeing as each player has only one) the enemy Queen or kill all units

Also, think I missed this, squads can be build up out of more units, but each unit can still preform a separate skill other then attack collectively. So say you want a unit to cast a spell, he will do that instead of attack. This will make the total attack power of the unit less for that turn but allows for tactical commands.

Last thing, I'm thinking of *not* using the fog of war. Because this is gonna be played in the browser, network calls can be quite easily monitored. This might give players that have a special plugin more in the advantage then those that don't have such a plugin (I know firebug does this quite well. hehehe).
Showing everything right from the start makes such a plugin quite useless, it might however impact the gameplay, removing a strategic surprise element.
I could encrypt my data send but I would not know any safe way of doing so... (maybe a small topic in the network forum could fix that though)

Any feedback? keep the fog of war or toss it overboard?