Maybe I’m underestimating the stupidity of this country, but it is hard for me to imagine that a significant number or people are gullible enough to fall for these phony grassroots protests at town halls. How do you think the general public will ultimately feel about these protests? Do you think that the general public will believe that there is a clear mandate against healthcare reform and think twice about it? Or, do you think the general public will be disgusted with the disruption tactics and the deception of the anti-reformers that it will reaffirm or strengthen support for health reform?

Quote: Original post by ManaStone
Maybe I'm underestimating the stupidity of this country, but it is hard for me to imagine that a significant number or people are gullible enough to fall for these phony grassroots protests at town halls. How do you think the general public will ultimately feel about these protests? Do you think that the general public will believe that there is a clear mandate against healthcare reform and think twice about it? Or, do you think the general public will be disgusted with the disruption tactics and the deception of the anti-reformers that it will reaffirm or strengthen support for health reform?

There are several issues here.

First, those who might be swayed by the reports of "grassroots" protests at town halls, will - they're really the only ones watching. A vast number of Americans are properly skeptical of television news, and as such whatever fiction they may be reporting as fact is irrelevant to them.

Second, the influence of the public on the healthcare reform debate is virtually null - notice how there is almost no mention of a single-payer option by Congress, or even the President. If things continue on their current trajectory, all we will end up with is some financial gymnastics and no real reform. Why? Because money has become political speech, and the block, bulk donations of the HMOs and pharmaceutical companies is out-speaking us as citizens.

Third, a disturbing number of Americans have grown enamored of our political theater, becoming heavily invested in the "wedge issues" and letting innate biases overwhelm any incentive to research issues and decide based on rational self-interest - call this the Joe the Plumber syndrome. Consequently, quite a few people who know that the astroturfers are frauds will still stick to their "side," because they've predetermined that all issues in America break down into red vs blue, conservative vs liberal, right-wing vs left-wing extremes.

It's pretty disheartening, to be frank.

Quote: Original post by ManaStone
Maybe I'm underestimating the stupidity of this country, but it is hard for me to imagine that a significant number or people are gullible enough to fall for these phony grassroots protests at town halls. How do you think the general public will ultimately feel about these protests? Do you think that the general public will believe that there is a clear mandate against healthcare reform and think twice about it? Or, do you think the general public will be disgusted with the disruption tactics and the deception of the anti-reformers that it will reaffirm or strengthen support for health reform?

You need to keep your base fired up which the republicans are doing very well. Republicans are almost certain to pick up seats in the House and Senate in 2010. It shuts down discourse as well, preventing people from even getting valid information. If you have people on tv waste all their time talking about town hall discussions turning into fight clubs then they aren't talking about the facts of the health care reform. It weakens support by making supporters tired of arguing against irrational people.

This is like a foot race where health care proponents need to run the mile in under 4 minutes and all the opposition wants is to get them to run it slower. They don't care about finishing first, they just want to make it so health care reform doesn't happen or is extremely watered down from a better bill giving them further ammo against 'government'. It's very easy to spread misinformation and 'the public' may not side with the rabid people at the meetings but they will fall for a lot of talking points and if they were supporters they might not be in favor of the 'problems' they are told in the final bill that is voted on.

At least that's my take on it.

It's destructive. As Oluseyi pointed out, it feeds the "f*ck it, who cares" sentiment, the majority tunes out (apathy in a off-election year is hip you know), denounces the whole thing as a sham, which means that in the end the astroturfers and their corporate sponsors win. The President and the Democrats sold out before the debate began, when they got chicken and took single payer off the table. They were too scared to even discuss it. They compromised their position before the debate ever began. All that "Change We Can Believe In" talk was crap. OK. So Obama was the change because of his ethnicity. Great. He's smart and well spoken. So he was a change from stupid idiotic shoot from the hip W. But from the moment Obama started hiring Clinton retreads, it was clear that the change would be reactionary, a return to the corporatist policies of the 1990's. Forget about holding Bush accountable for war crimes. By definition war crimes are only committed by other countries. Forget about a clean break from Bush policies - states secrets, eavesdropping, torture. Don't expect the law to be applied, that would be too political. Forget about prosecuting wall street crooks. By definition theft is only committed by poor people. Forget about new regulations and consumer protections, if we do that they'll stop lending people money. Forget about actual health care reform, the right to profit from death is more important than your right to see a doctor (you might be illegal too, god forbid you get health care). And the fascist right loves all this because it can pretend that the US is devolving into socialism and make a big fuss and scare old white people with racist dog whistles and pretend that it's the other guys who are the fascists because after all Nazis were socialists and look the logos are the same! And shouting down people in townhalls is old fashioned democracy dontja know you betcha! The astroturfing muddies the water. The media loves the conflict because it's dramatic and sensational and entertaining and entertainment makes money and information does not. Sh*t, if people want information they'll watch PBS right? Tune in to NPR? Nevermind that PBS and NPR follow the lead set down by the for-profit entertainment conglomerates. The media fears astroturfing too (someone might accuse them of having a factual bias). It can't expose the astroturfing lies itself, it has to hide behind factcheck.org. They have to give the flat earthers half the time else it's not fair! They have to entertain the birthers else we won't be entertained. It's a crock. The media fans the flames and then denies responsibility when someone gets killed. The astroturfers are the brownshirts - which is why they deny it and point fingers and accuse those they attack as Nazis. And people have already died. Holocaust museum guard. Dr. Tiller. Three cops in Pittsburgh. Unitarians in Tennessee... How many deaths will it take to recognize the disease? Will it take another Oklahoma City bombing? The assassination of a Congressman or Senator? the President?

Right-Wing Turncoat Gives the Inside Scoop on Why Conservatives Are Rampaging Town Halls
Fascist America: Are We There Yet?

Now this is just ridiculous. The Young Turks did a segment on the guy that allegedly got

">beat up by union thugs. Now this guy is in a wheelchair and asking for donations to help pay for his medical bills.

Tonight the Daily Show totally skewered the whole thing. It was brilliant.

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi
Third, a disturbing number of Americans have grown enamored of our political theater, becoming heavily invested in the "wedge issues" and letting innate biases overwhelm any incentive to research issues and decide based on rational self-interest - call this the Joe the Plumber syndrome. Consequently, quite a few people who know that the astroturfers are frauds will still stick to their "side," because they've predetermined that all issues in America break down into red vs blue, conservative vs liberal, right-wing vs left-wing extremes.

It's pretty disheartening, to be frank.

As an outsider, this is certainly my impression of American politics. I'm not saying that the same thing doesn't happen here, but it seems to me to be a hell of a lot worse in the U.S.

It seems to me, that for a lot of people in the U.S., politics is just a sport, and you follow the blue team or the red team. People will ignore the fact that their own team lies to them, and abuses their power, because WOO GO RED TEAM YEEAAAAAH.

Conservapaedia is a good example. It seems that for some people, anything that a conservative disagrees with is automatically an example of liberal bias (including evolution apparently).

What's hurting health care reform the most is the fact that most people probably don't even know what's in the bill in question (it's easier to listen to what the people on the idiot box tell you) and that some of the people that are supposed to be voting on this have admitted they haven't even read it.

Both sides are being dishonest and stupid. That's the way politics works in the country unfortunately. Until our political system changes to have people in charge that actually care more about the country and the people in it then getting more power and money, it's going to be this way on every issue.