Advertisement

"Mandatory end of life Counseling" and other Health Care Reform woes

Started by July 24, 2009 08:35 PM
863 comments, last by nobodynews 15 years, 1 month ago
Quote: Original post by trzy
If people want to pay for them, they should get the drugs they want. Also, this idea that bureaucrats can ration care under the guise of medical prudence is dangerous. Recently it has been discovered that many people diagnosed in a vegetative state, which allows them to be pulled off of life support, are in fact not.


What has people paying for treatment got to do with UHC? Unless you think that private treatment can't co-exist with UHC, in which case you're grossly misinformed.
Quote: Original post by Eelco
Quote: Original post by Promit
Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
This is why it's a little tiring to hear people say things like "ohhh the stupid republicans think this is socialized healthcare! it's NOT its just a public OPTION"
In case it wasn't clear from the last post, I would love to see the health insurance companies go broke. They're incredible leeches on society. I'm disappointed that the political landscape in this country is that not only do politicians not have the balls to go single payer, but the effort will likely fail entirely. Polls show massive favorabilities for public option (60%+) and it still won't happen.

Leeches on society? In what way exactly?

Surely you are not talking about their profit margins? Those are pretty lame as a percentage of invested capital.


Did you come late to the party? Reviewing the first few pages of this thread, I see the answer to that is no. Clearly, you haven't bothered to inform yourself, because why bother with facts when numbers can be manipulated, right? Why bother with reality, you know? And reality has a well-known liberal bias.

Iirc, leeches secrete an enzyme that numbs the host to their presence, so that they can feed at will, sucking as much blood as they can. It makes perfect sense that you would not be aware of these leeches on society. Here are links to posts in this thread that linked to articles and studies detailing the scale of insurance company leeching. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10].

If you're not familiar with the basic aspects of the issue by now, then you're just wasting other people's time and should excuse yourself from the discussion.


"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
Advertisement
Quote: Original post by HostileExpanse
Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
In order to facilitate a more informed discussion, here are a list of the points the Republicans are making along with the respective pages from the actual health care bill.

Was it Hannity, Limbaugh, or just a random teabagger that finally put up a list that could be copied-and-pasted?



Even from just casually skimming that list, I see bullshit items picked out with the attempt to frame them as "scary," when it's almost certain that the author of the list has little understanding of insurance. With that being evident, I'll wait until you're able to cite A SPECIFIC CLAUSE of a bill and tell us what problems you have with it. Unlike reposting e-mail forwards, THAT would actually facilitate an informed discussion.


FYI, I wrote that entire post. The only thing I copied and pasted from was the bill.

Unlike you, I actually have a copy of the bill that I have read about a 1/3 of

So I post an entire list of my points, cited directly from the source, along with page numbers and quotations from the bill, and you still find a way to dismiss my arguments? You sir, are a sheep.
Quote: Original post by trzy
Quote: Original post by LessBread

Yes. And building new hospitals will be good for the economy. Far better than building thousands of nuclear weapons, jets meant to fight the latest MiG's from the Soviet Union, or aircraft carriers meant to fight the Imperial Japanese Navy...


To be fair, we haven't been building "thousands of nuclear weapons" for decades. The F-22 program was recently canceled. Our military remains a costly drain on the treasury because of our foreign bases and pointless excursions. The military-industrial-congressional complex is the direct result of our silly representative democratic system, which pretends that arbitrary regional divisions represent political realities. Instead, they at best loosely represent economic communities, not political ones, which is exactly what the complex needs in order to exploit the system.


To be fair, the remark pertained to the historical choice that Truman made to pursue military keynesianism rather than medical keynesianism. Our silly representative democratic system could just as easily have been directed in ways that resulted in direct positive benefits to every last person in the country, rather than just representatives, military contractors and their employees.

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
For reference, all of my excerpts are taken from docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
1.) This will eventually lead to a single-payer system, aka "socialized" healthcare.

Negative to you, positive to me. I have no problems with Republicans being opposed to this, I just want to know why and what their alternative is to improve healthcare in America.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
2.) Government allowed real-time access to individuals' bank accounts for electronic transfers (pg. 59)

That's not what it says. It says:
Quote: (4) REQUIREMENTS FOR SPECIFIC STANDARDS.-The standards under this section shall be developed, adopted and enforced so as to-
...
"(C) enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with the related health care payment and remittance advice;

In small words, it basically says that the government-run service will use technology standards to allow people to pay any health care-related expenses electronically - you know, ATMs, credit cards. Et cetera.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
3.) Coverage given to non-us citizens, legal and illegal. (bottom of pg. 50)

That's not what it says. It says:
Quote: SEC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE.

(a) IN GENERAL.-Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.

It says nothing, on pages 50 or 51, or 52 for that matter, about citizenship, immigration or legal status.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
3.) non-resident aliens exempt from individual taxes (pg. 70)

That's not what it says. In fact, there is no mention of "tax" on page 70, or in fact anywhere between pages 9 and 109. If I may borrow your expression, "Read the bill." It appears you haven't.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
4.) Government will set wages for doctors (pg. 127)

Not entirely. There is a class of "non-preferred, participating" physicians as outlined in §225(c)(1)(B). Your choice excerpt:
Quote: "payment shall only be available if the provider agrees to accept the
payment rate established under section 223"

is actually from §225(c)(2), which covers "other providers" - not doctors.

You have a legitimate argument here, but don't manufacture or skew the evidence.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
5.) Employers exceeding a 250k payroll who do not choose the public plan will suffer a 2, 4, 6, or 8% PAYROLL tax (a lot of money) depending on the size of the company. (pg. 150)

This is part of §313, "Employer Contributions In Lieu Of Coverage." In other words, since you're no longer purchasing health insurance for your employees, make this tax contribution to the public fund. The question is, how does this compare to what employers currently contribute to private health insurance plans for their employees?

§313(b)(1) states that a company with payroll between $250,000 and $300,000 will contribute 2%, or $6,000. A September 2008 Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation survey of employee benefits found that the annual premium that a health insurer charges an employer for a health plan covering a family of four averaged $12,700 in 2008. Let's say that our small enterprise with a $300,000 payroll employs 10 people, paying $30,000 each on average, with 2 of the ten being family persons with dependents and the other 8 being single individuals. Assuming, then, the full $12,700 premium for the two employees with dependents, and amounts even one-fourth as much - $3,175 - for the other eight employees, the company's total insurance costs for one year would be $50,800, a staggering 16% of payroll!

You quibble over a contribution one-eighth as much? Really?

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
6.) Rationing cancer patient coverage to not exceed amounts determined by the Secretary. (pg. 272)

That's not what it says. It says:
Quote: SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS.

Section 1833(t) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395l(t)) is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraph:
(18) AUTHORIZATION OF ADJUSTMENT FOR CANCER HOSPITALS.-
(A) STUDY.-The Secretary shall conduct a study to determine if, under the system under this subsection, costs incurred by hospitals described in section 1886(d)(1)(B)(v) with respect to ambulatory payment classification groups exceed those costs incurred by other hospitals furnishing services under this subsection (as determined appropriate by the Secretary).
(B) AUTHORIZATION OF ADJUSTMENT.-Insofar as the Secretary determines under sub-paragraph (A) that costs incurred by hospitals described in section 1886(d)(1)(B)(v) exceed those costs incurred by other hospitals furnishing services under this subsection, the Secretary shall provide for an appropriate adjustment under paragraph (2)(E) to reflect those higher costs effective for services furnished on or after January 1, 2011.

In plain, simple words: the Secretary is authorized to make adjustments if it is found that certain cancer hospitals consistently cost more than other comparable hospitals - ie, the Secretary is empowered to ensure nobody is gouging the government.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
7.) Hospitals will be punished for having, as the government deems, "excess re-admissions" (chronically diseased patients) (pg. 280)

That's not what it says. The section, §1151, is titled "Reducing Potentially Preventable Hospital Readmissions." It effectively incentivizes hospitals to prevent readmissions - to ensure that the patient has been comprehensively looked after before being discharged (since payments are linked to discharges). The specific amendment reads:
Quote: (p) ADJUSTMENT TO HOSPITAL PAYMENTS FOR EXCESS READMISSIONS.-
(1) IN GENERAL.-With respect to payment for discharges from an applicable hospital (as defined in paragraph (5)(C)) occurring during a fiscal year beginning on or after October 1, 2011, in order to account for excess readmissions in the hospital, the Secretary shall reduce the payments that would
otherwise be made to such hospital under subsection (d) (or section 1814(b)(3), as the case may be) for such a discharge by an amount equal to the product of...<fiscal specifics>


Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
8.) Hospitals cannot expand their capacity without government approval. (pg. 317 section C)

The section, §1156, is titled "Limitations on Medicare Exceptions to the Prohibition of Certain Physician Referrals Made to Hospitals." The controlling subsection, §1156(i), is titled "Requirements to Qualify for Rural Provider and Hospital Ownership Exceptions to Self-Referral Prohibition". In other words, limitations on expanding capacity only apply to rural providers and hospitals seeking exceptions to the self-referral prohibition. The self-referral prohibition is a regulation that exists to prevent physicians from referring patients to hospitals in which they have an ownership or investment stake without disclosure - much in the way that financial analysts are required to disclose any investment relationships they hold with stocks they comment on.

The provision in question, then, says "if you wish to be free to refer your patients to a hospital that you own or have an investment interest in without having to disclose that interest, then you must agree to hold steady the number of operating rooms, procedure rooms or beds in your hospital" - in effect, you agree not to profit (expand) from being able to refer your patients effectively to yourself.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
9.) Restricted enrollment for those with special needs (pg. 354)

"SEC. 1176. LIMITATION ON ENROLLMENT OUTSIDE OPEN ENROLLMENT PERIOD OF INDIVIDUALS INTO CHRONIC CARE"

It reads:
Quote: "(C) The plan does not enroll an individual on or after January 1, 2011, other than during an annual, coordinated open enrollment period or when at the time of the diagnosis of the disease or condition that qualifies the individual as an individual described in subsection (b)(6)(B)(iii)."

In other words, you can only be enrolled into special needs/chronic care during an annual open enrollment period or at the time of diagnosis. What's the problem here?

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
"SEC. 1177. EXTENSION OF AUTHORITY OF SPECIAL NEEDS PLANS TO RESTRICT ENROLLMENT."

What's your specific beef with this section? The title may appear ominous, but, well, Read the Bill. It juggles some dates in the Social Security Act and authorizes the Secretary to perform a study on "cost, quality of care, patient satisfaction" on some select plans.

What's your criticism?

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
10.) Here's the big one. End of life care. Read the following quotes to understand where the republicans are coming from

...

The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions.

This is from §1233(a)(5)(B), even though you earlier quoted from §1233(a)(1)(A), which details an amendment to a completely different document: specifically, it proposes 42 U.S.C. 1395x §11861(hhh), which details resources to be made available to people to determine their own end-of-life care instructions:
Quote: 42 U.S.C. 1395x §11861(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term "advance care planning consultation" means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:
"(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.
"(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.
"(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
"(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).
"(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.
"(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include:...

This is interesting because of the definition laid out in §1233(a)(5)(A):
Quote: "(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term 'order regarding life sustaining treatment' means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that
"(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional's authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant) and is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care;
"(ii) effectively communicates the individual's preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual;
(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); and
"(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the individual.


You stupid, stupid, stupid people. Read the bill.
Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
Alright people.. this is why the chant heard at so many town hall meetings is: READ THE BILL

In order to facilitate a more informed discussion, here are a list of the points the Republicans are making along with the respective pages from the actual health care bill.

1.) This will eventually lead to a single-payer system, aka "socialized" healthcare.

Large possibility, as discussed earlier.

pg. 22 - Describing a government mandated audit of employers

"Such report shall include any recommendations the Commissioner deems appropriate to ensure that the law does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure"

pg. 72 and pg. 84 - determine requirements and restrict enrollment for private insurance.


That is a purely ideological point. They are worried about socialized health care. I'm not. I think that private health care has had 50 something years to prove it's worth and it's failed. It's a system that makes some people fabulously wealthy, but that makes the majority of people highly anxious. People without health care worry what they'll do if they get sick. People with health care worry what they'll do if they get sick and they lose their insurance. People with health care worry how they'll maintain themselves in jobs they hate but keep because they need the health care and so on. It's a major source of stress for people, and given that stress makes people prone to sickness, the irony is inescapable.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
2.) Government allowed real-time access to individuals' bank accounts for electronic transfers pg. 59


What is the fear here exactly? Is it a fear that bureaucrats will embezzle from individual's accounts? or that the government can monitor your bank transactions? It seems to me that this is tied up with other changes in banking reforms that Republican politicians usually praise.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
3.) Coverage given to non-us citizens, legal and illegal. bottom of pg. 50
4.) non-resident aliens exempt from individual taxes pg. 70


I don't have a problem with that. I mean, who would Jesus provide coverage to? Seriously, it's barbaric to deny health care to people based on their immigration status.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
4.) Government will set wages for doctors pg. 127
"payment shall only be available if the provider agrees to accept the
payment rate established under section 223"



I bet the insurance companies really like that provision. Maybe doctors will have to form unions like the nurses.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
5.) Employers exceeding a 250k payroll who do not choose the public plan will suffer a 2, 4, 6, or 8% PAYROLL tax (a lot of money) depending on the size of the company. pg. 150


I suspect that you've omitted details here, for example, that probably only applies to companies that don't already have insurance plans for their employees. Even if that isn't the case, I don't have a problem with the implication that it would lead inevitably to companies choosing the public plan. I would rather see corporate taxes raised directly rather than via payroll accounting trickery. As you state it, it looks like an incentive for employers to accelerate the trend towards outsourcing and temping work.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
6.) Rationing cancer patient coverage to not exceed amounts determined by the Secretary. pg. 272


How does that provision define rationing? Does it even use the word rationing or is that fear mongering?

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
7.) Hospitals will be punished for having, as the government deems, "excess re-admissions" (chronically diseased patients) pg. 280


I have to ask again if those terms are actually used and if so how they are defined. I suspect fear mongering.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
8.) Hospitals cannot expand their capacity without government approval. pg. 317 section C


Do you have a link to the document these page citations belong to? There are three bills in the House and two in the Senate. Which bill do these citations pertain to? And what is the status of those provisions? Have they been amended in committee? And for that matter, which lawmakers proposed these provisions? I wouldn't put it past Republican lawmakers to do their damnedest to seed poison pills throughout the bill, precisely to complain about them later on.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
9.) Restricted enrollment for those with special needs pg.354

"SEC. 1176. LIMITATION ON ENROLLMENT OUTSIDE OPEN ENROLLMENT PERIOD OF INDIVIDUALS INTO CHRONIC CARE"

"SEC. 1177. EXTENSION OF AUTHORITY OF SPECIAL NEEDS PLANS TO RESTRICT ENROLLMENT."



Details please. This smacks of poison pills and industry sweetheart deals.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
10.) Here's the big one. End of life care. Read the following quotes to understand where the republicans are coming from

pg. 425-426 "Such consultation shall include the following" "Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include:

The reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual's family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes

The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may include indications respecting, among other items the intensity of medical intervention the use of antibiotics; the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration."


I still understand that Republicans are misleading people about this. Sorry, there is nothing there that tells me where Republicans are coming from. There is nothing in that indicating that the government is going to euthanize old people. Again, that section pertains to voluntary consultations about setting up living wills. It allows old people to decide ahead of time what kind of care they want to receive in the dying stage of their lives. Maybe they don't want to be hooked up to a machine lingering for months. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't want their loved ones to have to agonize over decisions about their care when they are too far gone to make their wishes known. Isn't that the kind of planning that responsible people do? I think it's really despicable of Republicans to scare people over this. Living wills make it easier for families to deal with the pending death of a loved one. It seems Republicans would rather work to increase public anxiety about living wills than work to make them more widely available to people.

I also understand that Republicans are concerned that health care reform will pay for abortions. The solution to that is really easy. Have the system pay for birth control. Combined with a robust primary care system for women, abortions would be dramatically reduced. In addition, people who want to look down their noses at unmarried pregnant women will have more ammunition for their moral disapproval, as these unfortunate women won't have any excuse, except of course to declare that they wanted to get pregnant.

What page are the forced sex change provisions found on? From what I hear, there's a rumor that health care reform will force people to have sex change operations. Have you heard that one? It's clearly over the top.


"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
Advertisement
Quote: Original post by Eelco
Quote: Original post by Promit
Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
This is why it's a little tiring to hear people say things like "ohhh the stupid republicans think this is socialized healthcare! it's NOT its just a public OPTION"
In case it wasn't clear from the last post, I would love to see the health insurance companies go broke. They're incredible leeches on society. I'm disappointed that the political landscape in this country is that not only do politicians not have the balls to go single payer, but the effort will likely fail entirely. Polls show massive favorabilities for public option (60%+) and it still won't happen.

Leeches on society? In what way exactly?

Surely you are not talking about their profit margins? Those are pretty lame as a percentage of invested capital.
Why should profits be allowed at all? Why on earth would you support profit when the primary profit incentive is gained by killing people? Let's call it what it is. The more people a health insurance provider lets die, the better their quarter will be. As a corporation, their goal is to maximize profit for the shareholders, so it stands to reason that as long as they can do it quietly, the most prudent thing to do is let the expensive ones die. We've come to this point largely because they weren't good at doing it quietly enough.

A system where healthcare is an "investment" is a catastrophically broken one. The very first step should be to set the profit margin to zero. Not low. Zero.
SlimDX | Ventspace Blog | Twitter | Diverse teams make better games. I am currently hiring capable C++ engine developers in Baltimore, MD.
Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
Quote: Original post by HostileExpanse
Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
In order to facilitate a more informed discussion, here are a list of the points the Republicans are making along with the respective pages from the actual health care bill.

Was it Hannity, Limbaugh, or just a random teabagger that finally put up a list that could be copied-and-pasted?



Even from just casually skimming that list, I see bullshit items picked out with the attempt to frame them as "scary," when it's almost certain that the author of the list has little understanding of insurance. With that being evident, I'll wait until you're able to cite A SPECIFIC CLAUSE of a bill and tell us what problems you have with it. Unlike reposting e-mail forwards, THAT would actually facilitate an informed discussion.


FYI, I wrote that entire post. The only thing I copied and pasted from was the bill.

Apologies, then. I haven't even been on this site very long, but I haven't really noticed you to be one who posts his own thoughts in your recent threads.

Even if you are the author, it doesn't seem to deter my points [see bold]. However, if you did go through that much effort it's certainly worth discussing. Let's see what you've got.....

[Edited by - HostileExpanse on August 9, 2009 11:40:00 PM]
Let's start with the most appalling claim that I noticed when skimming your list.


Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
Alright people.. this is why the chant heard at so many town hall meetings is: READ THE BILL


.
.
.
4.) Government will set wages for doctors

pg. 127


"payment shall only be available if the provider agrees to accept the
payment rate established under section 223"




Your quoted text certainly doesn't support any claims about wage-fixing (and doesn't even apply to physicians), so show where the government is to impose some sort of wage control on doctors.

[Edited by - HostileExpanse on August 9, 2009 11:41:38 PM]
Quote: Original post by Oluseyi
Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
4.) Government will set wages for doctors (pg. 127)

Not entirely. There is a class of "non-preferred, participating" physicians as outlined in §225(c)(1)(B). Your choice excerpt:
Quote: "payment shall only be available if the provider agrees to accept the
payment rate established under section 223"

is actually from §225(c)(2), which covers "other providers" - not doctors.

You have a legitimate argument here, but don't manufacture or skew the evidence.


Doesn't look to me like Chris has even half-a-leg to stand on there. The payment mandate only applies to providers who proactively agree to be bound to the insurance plan's payment schedule for that year ["The Secretary shall provide for the participation of..."]

If the patient insists on using a provider that doesn't want to participate, then it's just up to the patient to use another payment option. The provider would suffer no mandate at all. As for people who agree to accept the plan's rate, then it doesn't seem that paying them that rate matches up with what Chris Reynolds is trying to fearmonger about.

This topic is closed to new replies.

Advertisement