Quote: Original post by LessBread

Quote: Original post by trzy
I think the neo-cons have been very frightened by America's economic and political decline. Their dream of a New American Century on their own terms is fading fast. Everyone perceives the need for a new ideological revolution to recharge us morally, socially, and then economically, but nobody knows how it ought to play out. I don't expect any creative or useful suggestions from the neo-cons, although I do hope America regains its confidence and is able to legitimately proclaim the superiority of Western values once again.

The neocons have yet to be purged from the system. They maintain some influence over the Democrats via Zionism. I see trumpeting superiority again as a vestige of neoconservativism, so your hope seems as dim as their dreams. As that article says, ideology is suspect, pragmatism is the order of the day, the future remains open. Contrary to that article, the legacy of 1979 does not teach us that people are "always ready to embrace a compelling vision of the future". That's a nonsense conclusion given the lengths the article goes through to detail the specific conditions that led to the "great backlash" in 1979. We're not on the cusp of a counter-revolution to the counter-revolution - to apply that author's terminology. The "Great Recession" may have discredited Thatcher and Reagan on the surface, but the roots they laid down still remain in place. The fact that single payer health care was completely cut out of the discussion attests to this.

Believing in, living by, and proudly declaring the superiority of our values is not neoconservative. The modern world was built on these values. We are better positioned than ever before to continue to spread and develop them by entirely peaceful and constructive means. Pragmatism is an important value but is no replacement for a motivating, driving force. Pragmatism is no ideology at all; it's merely a moral vacuum and easily twisted into an excuse for all sorts of evil. I think we should be pragmatic in achieving something visionary. Ours is perhaps the only civilization capable of grand vision, and this gives us a powerful edge if we choose to use it for good.

Quote: Original post by trzy
Believing in, living by, and proudly declaring the superiority of our values is not neoconservative. The modern world was built on these values. We are better positioned than ever before to continue to spread and develop them by entirely peaceful and constructive means. Pragmatism is an important value but is no replacement for a motivating, driving force. Pragmatism is no ideology at all; it's merely a moral vacuum and easily twisted into an excuse for all sorts of evil. I think we should be pragmatic in achieving something visionary. Ours is perhaps the only civilization capable of grand vision, and this gives us a powerful edge if we choose to use it for good.

Someone's been reading way too much Rand....

Quote: Original post by trzy
Believing in, living by, and proudly declaring the superiority of our values is not neoconservative. The modern world was built on these values.

The modern world was built on exploitation, greed and graft. Those are your values?

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi

Quote: Original post by trzy
Believing in, living by, and proudly declaring the superiority of our values is not neoconservative. The modern world was built on these values.

The modern world was built on exploitation, greed and graft. Those are your values?

These are common to all people, including Westerners, as a result of our imperfect human nature, and it is no surprise that they played a role in the course of our history. The essential ideas that have lead to the modern international civilization we take for granted are a profound respect for human dignity, justice, and rationalism. We have rejected traditionalism and actively try to keep tribalism in check in our efforts to build a shining City on the Hill, which all now aspire to.

The effort has been fraught with setbacks and disasters along the way, but overall, we are better off for having accepted these values. Now they are the whole world's values.

Quote: Original post by HostileExpanse

Quote: Original post by trzy
Believing in, living by, and proudly declaring the superiority of our values is not neoconservative. The modern world was built on these values. We are better positioned than ever before to continue to spread and develop them by entirely peaceful and constructive means. Pragmatism is an important value but is no replacement for a motivating, driving force. Pragmatism is no ideology at all; it's merely a moral vacuum and easily twisted into an excuse for all sorts of evil. I think we should be pragmatic in achieving something visionary. Ours is perhaps the only civilization capable of grand vision, and this gives us a powerful edge if we choose to use it for good.

Someone's been reading way too much Rand....

For the record I have never read Ayn Rand nor do I intend to waste my time with her. What I have heard of her philosophy I find detestable.

Quote: Original post by trzy
Now they are the whole world's values.

Far from it. Don't make the mistake of regarding shining exceptions as representative of the mass. The mass, the public is still crude, unrefined, craven, racist, selfish, intolerant and incomprehensibly ignorant - and this holds everywhere.

The ideals are noble, and we should all aspire toward them, but far too often what we see is the proclamation of manifestation while behaving in a manner precisely opposite.

(And please stop writing like a bad political thriller. Please.)

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi

Quote: Original post by trzy
Now they are the whole world's values.

Far from it. Don't make the mistake of regarding shining exceptions as representative of the mass. The mass, the public is still crude, unrefined, craven, racist, selfish, intolerant and incomprehensibly ignorant - and this holds everywhere.

You are absolutely right. Nevertheless, the intellectual and international political framework of the modern world compels everyone to aspire to these values. Even where oppression still reigns virtually unchecked, the oppressors feel compelled to portray themselves favorably by our standards. On every continent, the degree to which a society is considered "developed" or "modern" is judged by how closely it approximates Western European norms.

Quote:
The ideals are noble, and we should all aspire toward them, but far too often what we see is the proclamation of manifestation while behaving in a manner precisely opposite.

No argument here.

Quote: Original post by trzy

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi

Quote: Original post by trzy
Now they are the whole world's values.

Far from it. Don't make the mistake of regarding shining exceptions as representative of the mass. The mass, the public is still crude, unrefined, craven, racist, selfish, intolerant and incomprehensibly ignorant - and this holds everywhere.

You are absolutely right. Nevertheless, the intellectual and international political framework of the modern world compels everyone to aspire to these values. Even where oppression still reigns virtually unchecked, the oppressors feel compelled to portray themselves favorably by our standards. On every continent, the degree to which a society is considered "developed" or "modern" is judged by how closely it approximates Western European norms.

Woah, silver. From your writing it looks like you've assumed they're doing this because they're "compelled to aspire to" these ideologies. That's a bad assumption. Here's a question: Would the USA, by your definition a trend-setter in this regard, portray itself to the world as greedy, materialistic, unsympathetic, paranoid and arrogant? Because it is. It doesn't really matter if you pick a Republican or Democrat administration, since administration is too brief - look at the long-term policies enacted over the years, the programs started in various departments. Why did I single out the USA? Because you're from it. Australia is no better, neither is Europe (want to see real-time greed? Watch the EU debate anything).

The simple fact is that "Western Values" have become the de-facto standard for how nations are judged, because western nations are in the position to judge. Maybe they will continue to hold that position, maybe the emergence of eastern nations as first-class citizens (China and India spring to mind immediately), will change what values are held as things to aspire to. But this doesn't address the real issue: Everyone is pretending. Men who beat their wives in drunken rages every week don't boast loudly about it, and nations with greedy, zero-sum agendas don't portray themselves as such to each other. Everybody knows that everyone else is like them, but it's not mentioned explicitly.

Don't assume any superiority in western values, since those values are only held as the appropriate thing to lie about.

This thread seems to have veered away from the WSJ again, so to steer it back here's a thrashing of a recent WSJ editorial: Wall Street Journal Loves Obama's Drone War Vs. Pakistan: "Unmanned Bombs Away"

Quote:
The Wall Street Journal is officially in love with President Obama’s undeclared air war inside of Pakistan’s borders. In an unsigned editorial, the paper enthusiastically endorses Obama’s use of predator drones to bomb areas throughout Pakistan. The WSJ editors praise the administration, saying “to its credit, [the White House] has stepped up the use of Predators.” The editors declare: “When Pakistan’s government can exercise sovereignty over all its territory, there will be no need for Predator strikes. In the meantime, unmanned bombs away.”
...

Here's the editorial: Predators and Civilians

Here's a completely different take on the issue: Stop bombing us: Osama isn’t here, says Pakistan

Quote:
Osama bin Laden and the top Al-Qaeda leadership are not in Pakistan, making US missile attacks against them futile, according to the country’s interior minister.

“If Osama was in Pakistan we would know, with all the thousands of troops we have sent into the tribal areas in recent months,” Rehman Malik told The Sunday Times. “If he and all these four or five top people were in our area they would have been caught, the way we are searching.”
...

Quote: Original post by _goat
Woah, silver. From your writing it looks like you've assumed they're doing this because they're "compelled to aspire to" these ideologies. That's a bad assumption. Here's a question: Would the USA, by your definition a trend-setter in this regard, portray itself to the world as greedy, materialistic, unsympathetic, paranoid and arrogant? Because it is. It doesn't really matter if you pick a Republican or Democrat administration, since administration is too brief - look at the long-term policies enacted over the years, the programs started in various departments. Why did I single out the USA? Because you're from it. Australia is no better, neither is Europe (want to see real-time greed? Watch the EU debate anything).

The simple fact is that "Western Values" have become the de-facto standard for how nations are judged, because western nations are in the position to judge. Maybe they will continue to hold that position, maybe the emergence of eastern nations as first-class citizens (China and India spring to mind immediately), will change what values are held as things to aspire to. But this doesn't address the real issue: Everyone is pretending. Men who beat their wives in drunken rages every week don't boast loudly about it, and nations with greedy, zero-sum agendas don't portray themselves as such to each other. Everybody knows that everyone else is like them, but it's not mentioned explicitly.

Don't assume any superiority in western values, since those values are only held as the appropriate thing to lie about.

I agree with your analysis that history is written by the victorious.

But as for western values being superior, thats not a matter of assumption, thats a matter of empiricism.

Just ask me: would I rather live in any country without western values? The answer is a strong and explicit no. Hence, i deem western values to be superior.

Do i think we should go spread them at gunpoint? No. Do i think i need to remind other people how awesome their values are, and how repulsive mine are? Suit yourself, but you are going to have to engage in that hobby without me.