Hi. As most Space Sim gamers have probably played and most likely got a copy of themselves, the PC games: Freelancer and the entire X series, had their own trading systems that worked. Now, I found the trading and economic simualtion idea and concept very interesting, in the fact that what you did "could" ( and I use the word to a moderate extent) affect the world and the current trade lanes usage and the prices of items for purchase and selling. This is all well and good, right? What I'm wondering is if other games developers could try and implement this in some way for their own gameplay. I'm not saying put this in every game (doesn't really work to have a dynamic trading system in a straight-forward shooter such as Half-Life), but for those games where it could really work out well, e.g. The Elder Scrolls RPGs (Nothing you did really affected what happened in the economic community of the game; Fallout 3 as well), The Deus Ex series (Not completely dynamic, but allows for selling as well as buying, meaning that there would have to be some sort of inventory system) and the Stalker series (Clear Sky, being the one I played to completion, had a pretty sub-standard system). I realise that this would require much code to make effective this kind of system for games, but it might just work. I mean, who doesn't want to see themselves as the cause of all the economic problems of rival faction to their own or as the saviour of their own factions transport ships, allowing them to gain more resources for the fight. It has worked before (albeit to moderate effect), maybe developers want to give a go again?

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Original post by Dex Jackson I mean, who doesn't want to see themselves as the cause of all the economic problems of rival faction to their own or as the saviour of their own factions transport ships, allowing them to gain more resources for the fight. It has worked before (albeit to moderate effect), maybe developers want to give a go again?

If all you want to do is provide consequences for targeting or defending soft civilian targets, you can abstract the entire system with relative ease. Instead of attempting to model each transaction, simply give each faction an "economy points" (EP for short) stat, and have different events and conditions influence it. Owning planets and castles and tradeposts earns a few EP per hour or day, and you can transfer EP from one faction to another by raiding back at forth. Losing a freighter costs a few EP, and factions gain a bonus to their EP generation by being at peace with other nearby factions.

Then, on the output side of things, a faction with higher EP will field more advanced units in greater numbers, and they'll have better stuff in the shops, and prices for raw materials will be higher. No need to have a real working economy on the order of X3 or EvE online, but you can make it a tactical consideration for a combat-heavy game without much difficulty.

Creating a balanced complete working player-based economy is difficult. You need to ensure that the effective cost of mining or constructing the resources is sensible and stable, and make sure that the source-sink balance is maintained over short and long periods. However, a good trading system can add to the possibilities open to the players.

Note though that even in something as big as Eve, there are items bought and sold by the game, so the market is not completely free to go crazy.

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage Quote: Original post by Dex Jackson I mean, who doesn't want to see themselves as the cause of all the economic problems of rival faction to their own or as the saviour of their own factions transport ships, allowing them to gain more resources for the fight. It has worked before (albeit to moderate effect), maybe developers want to give a go again? If all you want to do is provide consequences for targeting or defending soft civilian targets, you can abstract the entire system with relative ease. Instead of attempting to model each transaction, simply give each faction an "economy points" (EP for short) stat, and have different events and conditions influence it. Owning planets and castles and tradeposts earns a few EP per hour or day, and you can transfer EP from one faction to another by raiding back at forth. Losing a freighter costs a few EP, and factions gain a bonus to their EP generation by being at peace with other nearby factions. Then, on the output side of things, a faction with higher EP will field more advanced units in greater numbers, and they'll have better stuff in the shops, and prices for raw materials will be higher. No need to have a real working economy on the order of X3 or EvE online, but you can make it a tactical consideration for a combat-heavy game without much difficulty.

That is actually a pretty good idea, albeit one that makes it simple and for some who enjoy the real complexities of crippling and/or completely destroying their economy not as in-depth as they might wish. I would imagine, based on what you have posted, that several developers have already done this. I can think of a couple of games that do this (names escape me, but I think its Rise of Nations and... darn, can't think of it). Am I correct? Still, I do wish that in some games - possbily somewhere in the near future - that there was more impact on the economy when you did something significant.

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Original post by Bob Janova Creating a balanced complete working player-based economy is difficult. You need to ensure that the effective cost of mining or constructing the resources is sensible and stable, and make sure that the source-sink balance is maintained over short and long periods. However, a good trading system can add to the possibilities open to the players. Note though that even in something as big as Eve, there are items bought and sold by the game, so the market is not completely free to go crazy.

If the game is going to have a complex economy model, then it should have the same cycles of boom and bust similar to real life. Believe in market forces that will correct the market in the end.

Of course, that means the cost of production must be fluid too. Worker pay, land ownership, etc.

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Original post by Si Hao If the game is going to have a complex economy model, then it should have the same cycles of boom and bust similar to real life. Believe in market forces that will correct the market in the end. Of course, that means the cost of production must be fluid too. Worker pay, land ownership, etc.

As soon as this becomes part of a game, it effectively becomes a Management game. That is what you want to avoid! (No offense to any of you who play those types of games. I've played a few and they are downright fun games to waste your after-college time on.)

In fact, just thinking about it now. Except for Strategy games (includes RTS, Turn-Based and GOD), Space Sim games - even the X series has to be admitted here - never actually have their AI as constant forces that threaten the economies of other factions/sides, e.g. direct assaults on bases or trade lanes, ambushes etc... That's a mighty fine shame, right there.

I believe that all games with trading only require the player to "buy low sell high" and do not require any economic decision making. The primary problem with trying to mimic the real world economy is that there is no simple model of the economy for game programmers to use.

However, games with secondary markets (collectible card games, mmorpgs etc) allows for players to exercise economic decision making to "play" in the secondary market.

Like you I don't favor the management approach. What I'd like is to respond to complex events without having to devote hours of gameplay analyzing and interpreting them from raw system mechanics. If I pick up a cargo, for instance, it would be nice if it came with the possibility of risks based on what it is, and I'd like for the cargoes to incrementally affect the world state.

Let's take weapons, for instance. If there are factions which can dynamically improve and get into conflict with each other, it would be interesting to choose a side, go through the trouble of smuggling and blockade running and ultimately see one side win or lose.

And it doesn't have to all be action/violence oriented, either. I think a lot of the deadly dull "buy low/sell high" is dull because the economic situations have been drained of their passion. Where is the mission to get a new, unstable cargo to a location before the competition does in order to head off the financial ascendancy of a rival? Or how about missions that require me to split my fleet, maybe risking weak assets or significant pirate threats to capitalize on two simultaneous time-limited opportunities? How about a system for finding bargains that's married to impressing or correctly interacting with characters? What if I'm contracted to deliver cargo but the receiver is mysteriously dead?

I think all of this would be far more interesting than looking at a map and figuring out where to sell my latest cargo of ores.

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Original post by Wavinator Like you I don't favor the management approach. What I'd like is to respond to complex events without having to devote hours of gameplay analyzing and interpreting them from raw system mechanics. If I pick up a cargo, for instance, it would be nice if it came with the possibility of risks based on what it is, and I'd like for the cargoes to incrementally affect the world state.

Exactly. Economy effects need to happen, as you said, "incrementally". I don't want to see a event where I destroy a cargo transporter carrying almost worthless minerals and then have a reaction to that where the whole mining community grinds to a halt. Ok, extreme example but I'm sure you get what I'm talking about. I only want to see such a cataclysmic event if I do something immense like help take over a mining area or destory a couple of processing facilties etc...

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And it doesn't have to all be action/violence oriented, either. I think a lot of the deadly dull "buy low/sell high" is dull because the economic situations have been drained of their passion.

AKA Freelancer (and to an extent, X series and Elite), am I right? Yes, I see your point and I favour this idea/concept to a very similar extent to how you have described your view. However, almost every gamer who does play the Space Sim genre, will want a mission that doesn't really effect the game world per say. That is, you could either have a mission or oddjob where you're just eliminating a couple of pirates or police and it doesn't really effect the world. You have to put that in as well for the gamers that just want some shooting to do for a "legit" cause. It's a bit of a toughie, if you think about a little.