Well, in my current attempt to create the game design to my new rpg game I thought about gaining experiences. In most experience based RPGs your character gains experiences directly after executing a certain task , mostly killing a mob or finishing a quest. The new approach is quite old, it is taken from the score system of action games like doom. In doom etc. you gain score after finishing a level. How many secrets has been discovered, how many mobs been killed etc. Why not transfering this approach to a MMORPG on a daily base ? You need some statistics and feedback, like finishing X small quests and killing Y orcs, but the final experience calculation only occures once a day. It will consider how many different mobs you have killed, places you have visited, quests you have finished, players you have helped, dungeons you have visited and many more. The experience gain should be none linear, i.e. 100 exp for first 100 orcs and just 50 exp for every orc over 100 this day. Every day could be an action day like "grinding day, x2 exp for mobs", "dungeon runner, +1000xlevel for each finished dungeon", "noob day, helping a noob +200xlevel exp" which would motivate the gamers to do other things then just grinding all the day. The concept has been already "tested" in MMORPGs like WoW where the (old) PvP-point system has been evaluated once a day and at certain weekends point boni for certain battleground are given. But why not using the same approach for the general experience system ? Well, one problem could be the delayed impact of experience gaining. Fast leveling characters, like a new character which gains levels in a few hours could be a problem. Or a character which needs only a few points to gain the next level where he could get a mount and just don't want to wait a whole day to get it. A solution to this problem would be optional,direct calculation of experiencepoints without any bonus. Any thoughts ? -- Ashman

I think games more attractive if it's nearer to the truth- somehow mean logic. Therefore, this "new" approach must be new, but not so logical. people gain exp three ways defend on their act: directly, long-term and ultimate.
The direct exp must not be it right now, the exp gaining system. Which mean, character gain xp and level up. It's not true. Because, the level up meaning variety. On my point of view, their direct exp must be reward like item or gold.
The long-term must be knowledge: when you do such things like explore a land, kill mobs, you gain info 'bout that land, that mobs, part of this idea you could see in Atlantica. Ultimate exp for player, every game have a target, so it is, that what the ultimate for.
Player love to grinding and farming, 'cause they want to be supreme, to have the ultimate target. So, if you don't want your player do such boring thing, just make a diffirent system that player can achieve the ending but do not need g/f.

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Well, one problem could be the delayed impact of experience gaining.

This is a psychological issue. If you separate the reward from the task, then the player will not feel as rewarded for doing that task and is more likely to abandon the task.

As the task is completing quests, killing monsters, then this will mean that the player is less encouraged to so them. However, as this is still the main gameplay of the game, what you are really doing is discouraging players from playing your game.

Not a good idea.

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The new approach is quite old, it is taken from the score system of action games like doom. In doom etc. you gain score after finishing a level. How many secrets has been discovered, how many mobs been killed etc.

The problem of RPGs were you ahve to grind is not the immediate reward of experiment points or loot, it is that you have to keep doing small repetitive tasks to increase your xp and loot.

Your idea does not address this problem. You are still requiring players to do small repetitive tasks, but you are not immediately rewarding the player for doing them and so the player will be discouraged from wanting to do them.

In action games, the rewards the player feels is not necessarily the completion of the level, but that of defeating an enemy. Each time they get past an enemy, they have seen direct progress in the level and so experienced the reward immediately. The rewards at the end of a level are more like the reward you get after defeating a boss monster in current RPGs. The reward at the end of an action game level comes very soon (if not immediately after) the boss fight. The reward for killing the boss, even though it is the end of the level, is immediate and this is what the player sees as the reason for the reward.

The Cause -> Reward and the perception of that chain is very crucial to the psychology of game design. I think every game designer should become familiar with the psychology of Reward/Punishment, it would make for much better games.

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Original post by Edtharan This is a psychological issue. If you separate the reward from the task, then the player will not feel as rewarded for doing that task and is more likely to abandon the task.

I disagree. I get what you are saying, and I understand how powerful the instant feedback is, but I'm not convinced it is crucial for a good game. For an addictive/wildly successful game perhaps, but...

I wonder if you wouldn't get players more interested in the long-term view of the game by explicitly pulling their eyes off the short term view. Dunno.

Actually, one other potential factor here is that your players are more motivated to log on each day, to see their new toys earned in the last play session. So maybe they are less motivated to play fewer longer sessions and more motivated to play more shorter sessions (?)

perhaps if the "return" scaled with each level...

IE you start the game at level 1.... you play 10 minutes, gain the required exp to reach level 2 and BAM you're level 2.

Depending on your level cap you could make levels 1-10 instant..IE as soon as the person has the required EXP they immediately level up.

Level 11-20 there is a 1 hour wait + 10 mins per level such that the wait from level 11 to 12 will be 1 hour after you actually have the exp you need. The time from 12 to 13 will be 1hour and 10 minutes after you have the required exp.... though now that I write this... it would suck to know you've got the exp.... but now you just have to wait. I wouldn't play that game very long.

Your example of WoW's original PvP BG level system is not the best example because that didn't have anything to do with you leveling your char or gaining new spells, talents etc... it was all about getting a RANK so you could buy new gear.... Which in that case it sort of works... but to apply it to Leveling your char...well, it would need a lot of tewaking before I'd play a game that made me wait 5 minutes, 1 hour, 5 hours, a day before leveling me up EVEN THOUGH I already have the required exp.... See what I mean?

It's a good idea in theory and I applaud anyone who tries to find a "new" way to approach leveling/exp grinding etc... I just think this one would need a lot of work to hold people's attention.

I look forward to seeing what others think and where you go with this.

- John

I'd say that this idea is a step backwards. Nobody is going to want to stick around and wait for their reward a day after they've did whatever needed to be done to earn it.

You're basically saying you want to set up a system like how paychecks work. A person works a week or two and then receives the total amount of payment for their work.

When you put it in that perspective... if you could get paid per minute for the work you do (like the money is instantly added to your bank account for each minute you work) Who WOULDN'T want that option? I know I'd like to see my bank account growing by the minute and know that the work I'm doing is being nearly instantly rewarded with a payment.

There are reasons why this sort of thing isn't possible IRL... it's because of delays with banks and funding and all other sorts of things. However, in a videogame you don't have these limitations. Awards can be given instantly and should be.

I'm not saying you can't have some sort of daily award system... just don't use it for your player's experience/leveling. Maybe it's a money bonus or something.

Again there have been problems brought up as to why the "level at the end of the day" system is bad. If the player is near leveling or if the player levels 3-4 times in 24 hours and jumps a whole gap of levels the next day, etc.

I think its a fine idea.

Never mind "the concept has been tested in WoW", the idea of xp being awarded only after completion of a quest or at the end of the day has been written into a number of editions of Dungeons & Dragons and I know of groups that have played that way with no problems.

Decoupling xp and leveling from the experience is great, imho, because making the xp and leveling the main reward for play has been one of the biggest causes of grinding-based play and other similarly un-fun mechanics.

Xp isnt the only reward available. RPGs in particular have story, setting advancement (eg, notoriety within the world), and character customisation as very prominent features. Story/plot exposition can be a very strong motivator for the right types of players, as can increased customisation options. There is a large part of the audience that respond to incremental xp and grinding, but there are also large parts of the audience that go out of their way to follow storylines and gather complete sets of outfits, etc, despite the fact that those are often less fully developed parts of the game design than the grinding mechanics.

I dont believe that targeting a different reward mechanism and taking the focus away from the view that "being high level is the point of the game" is a bad thing. Being high level is rarely all that rewarding in and of itself anyway, except where extra effort has been put into making all the content "end-game" content - we've just been conditioned to think that its the best reward because its the most prominent reward mechanism - and thats not the case for many players.

Separate xp from instant rewards and replace it with something thats really rewarding, not something which has been artificially created to seem rewarding. After all, at the end of the game what will be people be talking about more? The story and the combat experience itself, or the readout of their final xp tally?

Just out of curiosity, what does this add besides the delayed benefits of the experience? If I finish a day and see I fell 10 exp short of the next level, it would really annoy me that I needed to wait another 24 hours, instead of just killing the next random orc that crossed my path, to receive the benefits of that next level.

I have to agree with Konidias, this seems like a step backwards. This system doesn't cause players to look at the long term, its the exact same grinding and quests, just with delayed rewards.

You wouldn't mind if you didn't know. Perhaps its a step backward to be so concerned about what level you are and how many experience points you need. Why not try enjoying the story and the world and when you wake up one morning a level higher, enjoy that too and don't stress so much about the dozen XP that might have put you over the day before.

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Original post by JasRonq You wouldn't mind if you didn't know. Perhaps its a step backward to be so concerned about what level you are and how many experience points you need. Why not try enjoying the story and the world and when you wake up one morning a level higher, enjoy that too and don't stress so much about the dozen XP that might have put you over the day before.

It's not really up to the game designer to decide what the player is concerned about. Players will concern themselves with whatever they feel is important to them. Just because you have a laid back system where you only gain xp and levels once a day doesn't mean your players will go with the flow and enjoy the story and the world. Some players thrive on being able to level up many times in one day. That is what they like to do. You can't force them to like exploring the land and make them wait hours and hours to receive their rewards... that's just punishment to those players.

If you don't want your players to stress about levels and experience... then don't add levels and experience to your game. If you want players to explore and enjoy the story then focus on the story and exploration... Don't bother having experience and levels if you're going to basically punish people and not give them their rewards when they feel they've earned them.

You say "you wouldn't mind if you didn't know" but that's the thing... we *do* know. We know that we can get immediately rewarded for doing things in games. By taking away the immediate reward, you take away something that people have grown familiar with and that they expect to see.

It would be the same as if you were to have a player hit an enemy and the enemy doesn't take damage for an hour. It doesn't make sense, and it doesn't benefit the game or the players in any way.