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Original post by Megahertz Quote: Original post by NickGravelyn Quote: Original post by Megahertz Which is why Id Software is known for making game engines that everybody else uses and not actual games... Yeah, I mean who's ever heard of Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, or Quake? I mean, it's not like they practically invented the FPS genre or anything... Never said they didn't. Nor will I refute the fact.

Well, you kind of did. Your sentence, at least to me, implied that they were more known for their engine and not their games. While their games aren't the epic narratives some people want, id is still much more widely known for the games they've created than their engines. Almost anyone (gamer or non gamer) will know what Doom is.

But moving past that now...

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The difference is the story didn't just say that machines are taking over the world and it's up to one man to stop them all, and then the rest of the movie is just John running around shooting up robots for the next 2hrs.

But the difference between that and video games is that I get to run around shooting up robots for the next two hours. I'd be bored to tears watching such a movie, but as a game I find it quite enjoyable most of the time as long as the AI and my interactions with the world are interesting enough.

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Id Software's games are nothing more than the Friday the 13th's of the genre. Over glorified tech demos. Which, amazingly they seem to sell a lot of. =)

Perhaps that's just a sign of what the average gamer wants. A lot of developers like to preach that games need more stories, character development, and so on. But when it comes to sales figures, it would seem that most gamers are content playing mediocre sports games and shooting random aliens as Space Marine #293.

To the OP: could you post exactly why you think these are the top ten? Some of them are staples I've seen people grumble about constantly, but others are a bit off the wall. I've never played a game and thought "Gee, not another game with gnomes!". And your number three (no ancient races - period) eliminates huge swathes of fiction; no Shakespeare's Anthony and Cleopatra or Julius Caesar for example, or more worryingly, no fantasy worlds with any extended world history whatsoever.

Frankly I don't mind any elements*, as long as the game or story isn't by-the-numbers. Include at least one thing that makes your game stand out head and shoulders above the rest and I'll be happy.

*With the exception of realistic shooters and tactical games set in World War II. Just stop it already! There's plenty of other historical eras out there.

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Original post by NickGravelyn Quote: Original post by Megahertz Quote: Original post by NickGravelyn Quote: Original post by Megahertz Which is why Id Software is known for making game engines that everybody else uses and not actual games... Yeah, I mean who's ever heard of Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, or Quake? I mean, it's not like they practically invented the FPS genre or anything... Never said they didn't. Nor will I refute the fact. Well, you kind of did. Your sentence, at least to me, implied that they were more known for their engine and not their games.

Well to be fair, id software kind of did fall into being more of an engine maker. Wolfenstein 3D and Doom were great games, but Quake IMO really was just a glorified tech demo. Since most people seem to equate id more to Quake than Doom, the engine maker label isn't that unjustified.

I'd also be wary of labelling the "average gamer" as wanting id's FPSes, because that's not been strictly true for a long time. Doom was once in the top ten PC game sellers list of all time (note: of all time, not for a week or month), but I don't think Quake made it and I'm pretty sure the sequels did worse. Even back in Quake's day, people bought more games like Myst, Rollercoaster Tycoon and Lego Island. These days most gamers are into casual games and games like The Sims. FPSes were always for the hardcore segment, one which is now fairly niche.

I guess my upcoming game about a amnesiac half-elf half-gnome mercenary out to stop an ancient race of George Romero-esque mutant zombies and government spec-ops troops from unleashing a cataclysmic event that would cause human extinction to occur isn't a good idea then?

The main gameplay hook is that you have no moral compass and your actions, be they neutral, good or evil will drive the story.

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Original post by Megahertz What about RPG's where the characters are both male and female?

Ugh, double cliche.

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Original post by Dex Jackson I'm just going to list games that used those and sold. 10. Elves, Eleven Kingdom, Ancient Elves *World of Warcraft* 9. Gnomes as inventors and scientist in both high and low fantasy lands and realms (Last I checked, science and magic don't go hand in hand. Much like Evolution and Creationism). *World of Warcraft* 8. Special Forces, Black Ops, Spec Ops *Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon* 7. Human race's extinction or near extinction because of a silly little cataclysmic event *Fallout 1/2/3* 6. Mutants, Mutated Animals *Fallout 1/2/3* 5. George's Romero style Zombies (Left 4 Dead included; that game gets really boring after the first play, don't you agree?) *LEFT 4 DEAD* (bought it about a month ago.. play it at least an hour a day) 4. You are a Mercenay, Freelancer etc... *Hitman* 3. Ancient Races, period *age of mythology* 2. Amnesia *XIII* 1. You have no moral compass or ethics, choose your path: Good, Neutral or Evil. *Fable 1/2*

some of the games may not be GOOD.. but they SOLD.

kost.

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Original post by dashurc I guess my upcoming game about a amnesiac half-elf half-gnome mercenary out to stop an ancient race of George Romero-esque mutant zombies and government spec-ops troops from unleashing a cataclysmic event that would cause human extinction to occur isn't a good idea then? The main gameplay hook is that you have no moral compass and your actions, be they neutral, good or evil will drive the story.

The plot twist could be that they are mutated special ops. Other then that, sounds great.

As for the OP. I personally feel nothing should be avoided. While trying to follow your guidelines would lead to something new, and possibly interesting, portraying those design idea's in new ways can also make them interesting.

I played an rpg one of my friends made for ages because it portrayed elves as the superior beings (stronger, faster, more skilled with blade and magic). The twist was that these elves then started a war of purification (read purging the human stain). While I'll be the first to admit elves are overused in games, they can be made interesting by portraying them as xenophobic, racist, mass murderers.

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Original post by Trapper Zoid Even back in Quake's day, people bought more games like Myst, Rollercoaster Tycoon and Lego Island. These days most gamers are into casual games and games like The Sims. FPSes were always for the hardcore segment, one which is now fairly niche.

I think you might be going a bit far there. That "niche" hardcore segment includes the Killzone, Farcry, and Halo franchises, which are all posting respectable sales figures. RTS games you might say have passed their heyday, but we have Dawn of War II, Halo Wars, and of course Starcraft II incoming. All of those published have been number 1 sellers on their respective platforms. MMORPGs aren't casual either, and the amount of gaming dollars going in their direction is not insignificant. "Most gamers are into casual games" is true iff you dilute the term 'gamer' to apply to anyone who picks up a copy of Wii Fit. And in any case, the dollar votes going to non-casual games are very significant, perhaps moreso than the casual segment.

How about a game where you are a guy named Vincent. He is a med school drop out who works by day at a historical recreation of a 17th century village with his best friend Danny. By night Vincent cruises sexaholics anonymous groups looking to score. Meanwhile he tries to pay for his mentaly deranged mothers stay in a psychiatric hospital by pretending to choke on food in upscale resturants...It seems the wealthy people who save him through heimlich manoeuvre tend to feel responsible for his health, sending him money.

A major plot twist involves a female doctor translateing the Italian in his mothers crazy diary. Revealing that Vincent may actualy be the clone of Jesus Christ.

...This story made for a great book, and even a pretty decent movie, but could a game be made out of it?





Or, maybe we should just stick to special ops elves and stuff?

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Original post by Argus2 Quote: Original post by Trapper Zoid Even back in Quake's day, people bought more games like Myst, Rollercoaster Tycoon and Lego Island. These days most gamers are into casual games and games like The Sims. FPSes were always for the hardcore segment, one which is now fairly niche. I think you might be going a bit far there. That "niche" hardcore segment includes the Killzone, Farcry, and Halo franchises, which are all posting respectable sales figures. RTS games you might say have passed their heyday, but we have Dawn of War II, Halo Wars, and of course Starcraft II incoming. All of those published have been number 1 sellers on their respective platforms. MMORPGs aren't casual either, and the amount of gaming dollars going in their direction is not insignificant. "Most gamers are into casual games" is true iff you dilute the term 'gamer' to apply to anyone who picks up a copy of Wii Fit. And in any case, the dollar votes going to non-casual games are very significant, perhaps moreso than the casual segment.

"Niche" was too strong a word on my part, I agree. Significant market segment would be more appropriate. But it's important to note it's just a segment, it doesnt define what it is to be a "gamer".

The element I disagree with is considering something like FPS games as what the "typical" gamer plays. I also strongly disagree with the notion that "casual" gaming isn't "true" gaming. Honestly, it comes across to me as a form of elitism, like those games are beneath consideration. That sort of rubs me the wrong way, not particuarly because I think casual games are better per se, but that I consider all games are equally worthy. I think casual games get a bit of the short end of the stick around here, and that tends to make them devalued when they're actually quite popular. As far as I know, the most popular FPS series in terms of sales is Halo. Each Halo title has sold around 8 to 10 million (I think; not sure on latest figures). But something like the Sims or Nintendogs sells over 20 million. Bejeweled has sold over 25 million. If anything, it's the gamers playing the Sims who should form the stereotype, since they're the majority.

Sorry, it's probably too close to hitting a nerve for me. [grin] I tend to get a bit riled when there's mention of Quake being the be-all-and-end-all of gaming, even just obliquely, mostly because it was such a bad game (great engine for the time, don't get me wrong, but a terrible game). But that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish that would completely side-track this topic.

So, uh, why again are gnomes so bad? [grin]

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Original post by Dex Jackson 10. Elves, Eleven Kingdom, Ancient Elves 9. Gnomes as inventors and scientist in both high and low fantasy lands and realms (Last I checked, science and magic don't go hand in hand. Much like Evolution and Creationism). 8. Special Forces, Black Ops, Spec Ops 7. Human race's extinction or near extinction because of a silly little cataclysmic event 6. Mutants, Mutated Animals 5. George's Romero style Zombies (Left 4 Dead included; that game gets really boring after the first play, don't you agree?) 4. You are a Mercenay, Freelancer etc... 3. Ancient Races, period 2. Amnesia 1. You have no moral compass or ethics, choose your path: Good, Neutral or Evil.

- 5 through 7 are some of my favorite things. Games that focus on these attract my attention immediately.

- 2 is usually generic. Characters don't need Amnesia to lose their memory or identity. And like it or not, losing those is a great way to connect the player to the character. The character needs to ask all of the same stupid questions the player needs to ask.

- I try to avoid games that revolve around 9+10, as well as most other fantasy elements. Not because I don't like the theme, but because they rarely differ from each other. Same big bad ass sword. Same big ugly critters. Same mindless primitives in the village.

- Everything else in your list is neutral in my book.