This is a longer version of something I have posted before, hoping to get more details on advice for my specific situation. Thanks to any and all replies. So I've been presented lately with several different options of where to go after I finish the program at the school I am currently at. Everything seems to have some kinds of benefits, but I was hoping to get advice from industry professionals and others who have maybe been in this situation before as to which road might be the best way to travel. Ultimately, I know that I am the only one that can answer the question for myself, but I do appreciate any advice people have relating to my situation. I am currently attending Florida State University and will be graduating in Spring '10. I started off as a biochemistry major with an eye for going for a phd and doing research, but learned to realize that while I was great at chemistry, it wasn't something I really loved doing and spending hours and hours on. So I changed my major to computational biology. The original reasoning was that I both loved and was good at biology and computer science, but really didn't know what I wanted to do, so I was hoping for a degree that would be useful as a means towards a better education in whatever field I chose. This has so far been a fantastic decision for me, because I got to take my first programming course. Soon into the course I realized just how much I enjoyed it. I wanted to be a computer programmer long ago as a kid, but my dad always discouraged it, asking me if I really though working long days just typing code into a computer was fun. Of course I think he was right in his original assumption that I only wanted to do it at the time because I liked games so much, but after taking programming seriously as a course, and doing the projects, and then taking further courses in it, I have come to realize just how enjoyable it can be. Sure, it is long hour days typing in code into a computer, but I learned that I actually enjoy spending those long days doing it. The typing itself isn't what is fun, but the satisfaction of completing a project, or of fixing a bug, or even the frustration of trying to figure out what is causing a bug is something that I want to make into a career. I realize that breaking into the industry now is hard, and extremely competitive, but I fully intend to put in the time to be one of the few that make it. Of course while I can put in the time and work really hard, this does not necessarily mean that any decision made towards getting into the game industry with regards to education will have the same benefit. So, I find myself not too far off from graduation with a degree in computational biology, wondering what might be the best road to help facilitate my path into the industry. I've come up with what I think might be some reasonable roads to travel to get there, but I am looking for opinions, reasons, and advice as to what the industry professionals think. While I certainly have any untold number of options, the following are what seems to be the highest on my list at the moment, or the ones that might help me the most. 1: I could go for a masters degree in computer science. While the prestige that comes with the degree is usually higher than that of a bachelors, I wonder how much of a benefit this would be for me. From the research i've done, the degree is useful, but experience and a portfolio seem to be much more so. While a master's would give me another 2 years to build a portfolio in my spare time, would the general computer science education help me in terms directly relating to the industry? Would it be worth the money to get the degree? What are the chances, all other things considered equal, that the masters degree would prove more useful in getting a job, or a job with better pay? 2: The second major option I am considering is going to a specialty school like Full Sail. The degree doesn't really interest me as I will already have a BA from FSU, but what does interest me is the experience to be gained from working with a team, working on projects specifically relating to the field, and getting a specialized education ( whereas a computer science degree teaches me a lot of the theory, but probably not the specifics of game programming ). The main drawback would of course be the high cost of the program. Would the potential benefits ( assuming I use them to the best of my abilities ) be worth the extra money over the other options? In your opinion would it be easier to learn the specifics at a school such as this, or on my own? ( 3D programming for example, a topic that my current degree doesn't cover ). 3: What seems to be the best last major option to me is to work my ass off for the just over a year until I graduate, and try to get directly into the industry itself. I will of course have a degree from a well reputed 4 year university, but I am worried about my experience. The programming part of my major ( and the CS major here as well ) consists mainly of C++ and some assembly, but it's really about learning the theory behind it and not necessarily knowing how to use it in many situations. For example, all of the programming projects I have dealt with in my C++ courses have been console projects. Because of this, I feel fairly well acquainted with the language itself, and the inner workings of many programs, but when it comes to using external API's for programming involving graphics, I find myself largely ignorant. I am of course trying to correct this on my own, I've started using SDL to try some basic games on my own to get a feel for things, but I have a lot to learn. I recently finished my first version of a tictactoe game, am currently working on my version of breakout, and will escalate the difficulty as I feel comfortable with it. Things like 3D programming however, are quite foreign to me. The school doesn't offer a class on it, and it seems an important part of a programmers education. So, if I go with the 3rd route, that would leave me with just over a year before I graduate to learn the things on the side that my school doesn't teach, and to build up my portfolio. Is this even feasible? If so, what topics in programming should I focus on for an entry level job? Are there any good books or resources for starting out with 3D programming or other topics that might not be covered in my degree? If you were in the same situation, what would you do and why? Is there anything that maybe I havn't thought of that should be considered? Any other advice for someone looking to break into the industry as a game programmer? Definite thanks in advance to all replies, I know reading through my huge post was enough of a job :)

I'm sorry that I'm not a professional like you were looking for, but I can offer a tiny tad of advice maybe.

You say you're thinking about getting your Masters Degree, but don't konw if it's worth the time / effort / money based on what you might get in return? I don't yet myself either (I'm graduating this year, so I'll find out soon), but every person in the know that I've talked to said that a Masters is always worth it if you can, since you will get paid more in the long run. Usually by a substantial amount. Not to mention, as you said, it gives you another year or two to get your things in order, get an internship or two and get some experience. Ph.Ds on the other hand aren't the same story, based on what I've heard. Mostly useful for getting into academia.

Even if you can't do that, my advisor once told me that a Masters can stand in for some work experience, but honestly I don't know if that's true since I haven't tried it myself.

Other than that, I'd like to see some responses to this thread too since I'm in the same boat as you, more or less. I don't have any job experience, and I'm graduating soon and if grad school falls through I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm trying to get an internship for the Summer, but if that falls through too I might have a real problem. I feel that I can do the job, but that's not good enough these days.

Quote: Original post by Sethcran
1: I could go for a masters degree in computer science. While the prestige that comes with the degree is usually higher than that of a bachelors, I wonder how much of a benefit this would be for me. From the research i've done, the degree is useful, but experience and a portfolio seem to be much more so. While a master's would give me another 2 years to build a portfolio in my spare time, would the general computer science education help me in terms directly relating to the industry? Would it be worth the money to get the degree? What are the chances, all other things considered equal, that the masters degree would prove more useful in getting a job, or a job with better pay?

I know you're in the US so I don't know how your system works, but certainly in the UK even a Masters doesn't guarantee anything unless you're applying for some kind of academic position. Sure, it may be prestigious and demonstrates a commitment to a high level of study but will you be learning anything immediately useful to a potential employer?

Anecdote: I was worried about my degree prospects and was sure I was doomed to a 2.2 Honours (not sure what the US equivalent is) and all the job adverts I'd seen said 2.1 Honours minimum. Google brought me across a tale of woe from someone who had a 2.2 then did a Masters in the same subject.

Applied for job: nope, no 2.1, bugger off. Even though she had the Masters (which is a much higher level and tougher qualification) which surely should have overridden the 2.2. I don't know whether there was something else about her that wasn't mentioned, whether or not it was a bad HR decision or something else, nor do I know how widespread and common incidents like that are, but it's something to be aware of.

Further, less relevant anecdote: Essentially in the UK you're fucked without a 2.1. If you have a First you're automatically an antisocial nerd, bookworm and incapable of anything other than studying. No teamwork or communication skills.

2.2 or Third? You're considered to be some kind of retard. Essentially, you need a 2.1. Even though I have one myself, I find the system grossly unfair and blindly blows away a large pool of potential talent, talent which may have had a bad day in one exam through stress and nerves as opposed to lack of work.

I also am planning on graduate school for a MS-CS. I would recommend this option over full sail, as it will give you more opportunities in the future. One of the motivating factors for myself is the ability to teach at the community college level, or be hired as a lecturer at a university. If you are laid off during economic downturns like we are experiencing now then you may be able to find a teaching position. My main reason is research. I am doing undergraduate research in the area of multi-resoluton modeling over the current and next quarter. It is rough, but I do enjoy it quite a bit. I think it will be really enjoyable to do a longer research project (1 year or so).

If you plan on doing work for government contracted companies (Boeing, Raythion, CSC etc..) it helps to have a Masters. It would also help with companies that produce simulators for the government and related industries. As far as I can tell in the entertainment sector this is not as much of a requirement. However, I have seen job postings requiring a MS. (IMO) This is because that individual company has been burned to many times by crappy programmers with a BA.

Quote: Original post by ukdeveloper

Quote: Original post by Sethcran
1: I could go for a masters degree in computer science. While the prestige that comes with the degree is usually higher than that of a bachelors, I wonder how much of a benefit this would be for me. From the research i've done, the degree is useful, but experience and a portfolio seem to be much more so. While a master's would give me another 2 years to build a portfolio in my spare time, would the general computer science education help me in terms directly relating to the industry? Would it be worth the money to get the degree? What are the chances, all other things considered equal, that the masters degree would prove more useful in getting a job, or a job with better pay?

I know you're in the US so I don't know how your system works, but certainly in the UK even a Masters doesn't guarantee anything unless you're applying for some kind of academic position. Sure, it may be prestigious and demonstrates a commitment to a high level of study but will you be learning anything immediately useful to a potential employer?

Anecdote: I was worried about my degree prospects and was sure I was doomed to a 2.2 Honours (not sure what the US equivalent is) and all the job adverts I'd seen said 2.1 Honours minimum. Google brought me across a tale of woe from someone who had a 2.2 then did a Masters in the same subject.

Applied for job: nope, no 2.1, bugger off. Even though she had the Masters (which is a much higher level and tougher qualification) which surely should have overridden the 2.2. I don't know whether there was something else about her that wasn't mentioned, whether or not it was a bad HR decision or something else, nor do I know how widespread and common incidents like that are, but it's something to be aware of.

Further, less relevant anecdote: Essentially in the UK you're fucked without a 2.1. If you have a First you're automatically an antisocial nerd, bookworm and incapable of anything other than studying. No teamwork or communication skills.

2.2 or Third? You're considered to be some kind of retard. Essentially, you need a 2.1. Even though I have one myself, I find the system grossly unfair and blindly blows away a large pool of potential talent, talent which may have had a bad day in one exam through stress and nerves as opposed to lack of work.

You'll really have to provide some sort of link for what 2.1 vs 2.2 vs 3 or whatever system you use over there since you totally lost me and I'm sure everyone else was too unless they are from the UK. All that matters over here is if you have a Bachelor's or Master's,etc degree from an accredited college. GPA or grades you received don't usually matter much unless you plan on applying at NASA/JPL or other government agency. Actually, here in California most colleges also take your GPA into account when applying for a Master program so if you don't have at least a 3.0 forget it from what I've been reading on the various college websites anyways?
Anyways, in answer to the OP:
#1 Do you have a good enough GPA to even go for a Master's? If you do I'd say go for it since most jobs will let you substitute said degree for a bachelor's+work experience. A simple computer job search at monster.com or usajobs,etc will show this to be true. Also you will be able to teach at most community colleges in the meantime if you can't find any other jobs with a Masters.
#2 I refer you to this since it's already been asked and answered countless times.Deciding Between Regular College and "Game College" Personally I would think if you already earned a CS degree from a traditional college you should be able to pick up stuff not covered on your own pretty easily?
#3 Yeah that's all they used in my college classes too but if you have a decent grasp of C++ that shouldn't stop you from picking up SDL, Allegro, etc which frankly is quite easy compared to learning C++ in the first place.

Final piece of advice I have is to practice practice practice. I know it's simple advice but I've heard of way too many computer science majors complain about how they wished they would've spent more time programming in school so they wouldn't be so out of it when they got their first programming job.
Did I already mention writing a game in SDL,Allegro,etc is a walk in the park compared to writing your own game library or 3D engine from scratch?

p.s. If you want to feel that your college totally didn't prepare you for a programming job just read a NASA/JPL job description. Then again game programming isn't rocket science so there is still hope
[lol]

Required Skills: BA/BS degree in Computer Science, Applied Mathematics, Physics, Aerospace Engineering, Geophysics, Geodesy, Geomatics, Astrophysics, Space Science, Atmospheric Science, or related scientific/technical discipline with 5-10 years experience; or MA/MS degree with 3-8 years experience; or PhD with 1-6 years experience. Demonstrated experience developing object oriented C++ software for scientific computing and quantitative analysis. Direct experience with C++ templates for high performance numerical computing. Proven ability with use of UNIX/LINUX in technical computing environments. Solid understanding of software engineering tools. Direct experience maintaining software written in C++ and written in scripting languages such as python or perl, and capable of running custom-developed analysis software. Previous experience using or developing stand-alone applications that analyze scientific data. Able to obtain security clearance (top secret or equivalent).

Desired Skills: Specialized background developing physics-based numerical codes in C++. Experience with satellite data analysis. Experience with the python programming language. Good familiarity with technical graphical computing environments such as Matlab and/or Scipy (numeric python).

Always remember that employers are looking for exactly two things:

1. Will you do the job well?
2. Will you fit in with the company?

They will use everything you present to them as evidence toward those two questions.

Quote: 1: I could go for a masters degree in computer science. ... While a master's would give me another 2 years to build a portfolio in my spare time, would the general computer science education help me in terms directly relating to the industry? Would it be worth the money to get the degree? What are the chances, all other things considered equal, that the masters degree would prove more useful in getting a job, or a job with better pay?

When being hired, a master's degree tends to count as about one year of non-game experience. The knowledge tends to help you climb the career ladder quicker, often getting the first few promotions to mid-level in about half the time. You can also expect to be in a higher pay grade than your immediate peers.

Education is always helpful. I have never heard coworkers say "I know too much", or "I have too much education". Well, I have, but it is usually in jest because people keep coming to them for information.

The degree counts as fairly strong evidence to the first question of being able to do the job well.

Quote: 2: The second major option I am considering is going to a specialty school like Full Sail. ... what does interest me is the experience to be gained from working with a team, working on projects specifically relating to the field, and getting a specialized education ... Would the potential benefits ( assuming I use them to the best of my abilities ) be worth the extra money over the other options?

The program counts toward evidence of the first employer concern. The degree itself is of little interest; the portfolio you build is the evidence.

Personally, I do not feel their programs are worth it.

Quote: 3: What seems to be the best last major option to me is to work my ass off for the just over a year until I graduate, and try to get directly into the industry itself. I will of course have a degree from a well reputed 4 year university, but I am worried about my experience.

It is very easy to be hired as an entry level programmer.

The difficulty of getting a job in the games industry isn't that doing it is hard, the difficulty is how frequently entry-level jobs are created.

Consider the game dev map has around 2000 studios on it. Some are dead, and some are missing, but that is a good estimate at the number of significant active studios around the world. It is typical to only hire a few people every year, perhaps bringing in only one or two entry-level programmers.

The best thing you can do if you want to get hired by a local game company is to make friends (or at least casual acquaintances) with people in that game company today (a year before you graduate) and let them know you are finishing your degree soon and want to work at their studio. Networking with people inside the company is the best way to find out about job openings before they are public. Let them know when you frequently see them (about every month) that you are still interested in working there, if they can help you.


Simply having a bachelor's degree is enough. Get the master's degree if that is your passion, not external sources. With your degree in hand, it is best to have some internal contacts who will keep an eye out for jobs at their company.

Quote: Original post by Sethcran
This is a longer version of something I have posted before, hoping to get more details on advice for my specific situation. Thanks to any and all replies.[...]

I'm not a professional in the game development industry, but I have had an easy time as a professional software developer. My secret was to get an internship as soon as possible and get them as often as possible. I worked as a software engineer intern the summer after my first year of college and every year after that, and that company hired me when I graduated. Apply for internships, and try to get one this summer.