This is something I am thinking about once in a while, when you have a spell building system how do you maximize the uniqueness of each players spells? (how do you make them one of a kind) Well spell building is either achieved by having a choice of effects, energy sources and trigggers(chain lightning or counterattacks are a good example of good use of triggers) or trough a physics system, in neither case it seems plausible for me that uniqueness can be achieved by effect(atleast not if you have more than a handful of players)so what I came up with is: Let each player have a unique set of building blocks for magic, these building blocks are not effects rather they are like puzzle pieces that combine in a specific way, if you combine them the right way you might unlock effects, sources or triggers, wheras the solution/the way you found for unlocking influences the effectiveness of the spell. There could even be some random or time dependant(astrological?) elements each time you cast a spell, either in the form of puzzle pieces as additional available sources, or as a shift in the task needed to unlock a certain effect . Of course finding a fun puzzle for a magic system like this is not easy, but whatever is easy in game design? Another possibility might be or to give each player the same puzzle pieces but just make the task needed to unlock certain effects different. Yet another way is to give each player his own magic "physics", however its hard enough to come up with one working and somewhat complex system for magic having such system auto generated requires some serious understanding of the underlying principles. A variety of the puzzle approach is the mini game, like having to navigate trough a network(like a cave system) instead of building a puzzle, and the build of this network and your possibilities of movement would vary with each char.(effectiveness of spells could then vary according to the stamina spent for a certain "route") Well tell my your thoughts,opinions and additions on this matter thx.

What do you mean by "personal" magic?

Magic is based on a few principles...

you are either summoning or in contact with or manipulating the elements or spirits/your spirit included to achieve a result.

Because of this every magician has an affinity, an element or spell group that they are inherently stronger with, or more in touch with.

Basic magic, such as fireballs and floating and such are considered fairly low skill level magics. Now I say skill but this also means affinity wise too. If someone has low skill or low affinity in a particular magic it doesn't mean that they can't use it but rather that they can not manipulate it and use it as effectively as someone else...However this does not mean that a basic fireball can't be made to be a high end magic spell such as combining it with a rock ball and increasing the power a hundred fold to create meteor

On the other hand high affinity and skill doesn't mean you have high power either so someone with high affinity/skill and low power might not be able to create a meteor, but they may be able to do something like say in naruto where Atsuma uses his wind element chakra to make his knife far sharper than just metal, or with Shikimaru where he uses his shadow ninjutsus. They are lower power but take a hell of a lot of skill.

And then you also have magic that requires high power and high skill and affinity like say the creation of a fire phoenix or the petal blades of Rukia's brother from Bleach. It takes a lot of power to do, but if it was all just power he wouldn't be able to create and control all of those petals or make them as sharp as he does.

Further... there are different ways in which one casts. Some need a focusing item, some need words, some need full chants, some need to only think it, some need actions, some are automatic, some are inscribed, and some are embued?.

That should be more than enough to figure out to make a personal magic system...however controlling it is sorta lame if you have to do it every time imo which is why most games leave it go...I had an idea for a game once where each character had their own element and they had several ways of casting and such and you played all of them at once...what you had to do is switch between them and input what you wanted through a number of options and then switch to the next char and if you were able to get the timing right, as this would be active time system of battle, and the ordering the different spells would combine and effect the end result of what actually happened...though i gotta say that would be a bore if you had to do that too much ^.^

Can you explain why you want them to be unique? Personally I always kind of liked seeing how other people made strategic use of the same spells as me, and it would be impossible to give anyone advice about what to do with their spells if no one had the same spells.

Personally I like to have all players get access to one big library of spells, and the uniqueness come from which spells they choose to use, like the way a CCG has a fixed library of cards yet every player's deck is different.

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Original post by Durakken Magic is based on a few principles...

No, it isn't - it's magic, you can just make up as many principles as you like, or none at all. I've seen hundreds of systems of magic described, following a huge array of different rules.

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Original post by Wush in neither case it seems plausible for me that uniqueness can be achieved by effect(atleast not if you have more than a handful of players)

Your suggestion ultimately boils down to doing the same thing, but with the inclusion of barriers, requiring effect choices to be unlocked somehow. You still have your problem with the variety of effects for building spells being too small. If you no longer consider it a problem when you restrict access to those options, then there are many solutions to the problem, including puzzle-solving. But really, you're not solving the problem of uniqueness, because if you can't make spells unique by building them from effects, then you can't make them unique by building them from unlocked effects.

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Original post by Argus2 Quote: Original post by Durakken Magic is based on a few principles... No, it isn't - it's magic, you can just make up as many principles as you like, or none at all. I've seen hundreds of systems of magic described, following a huge array of different rules.

That's not true. There is a large difference between magic and OMG IT'S A POWER! Every form of magic that would be called magic in fantasy or mythology follows what I posted.

Hate to break it to all you people who think magic is simply "I want x to happen thus I make it happen and that is magic!" it's not and has never been. Magic, though made up, has rules.

A perfect example of what I am talking about with the definition of magic is "floating" something. There are a number of ways I can explain that and each of the different ways changes what is called that I am doing, even if it is essentially the same thing. If I float something with my mind is it ESP or magic? Am I doing it purely with my mind? am I manipulating energies with my mind and making it float? did i have to say a chant? is it really magnets? Am i communicating with spirits and they are lifting it? What exactly is going on? If i say it is my mind it telekinetics, if i'm messing with spirits or energies it's magic, if employing magnets, it's technology. If I manipulate energy with magnets it's technology. If use a microphone to talk to an invisible fairy to lift the object it is still technology.

Magic is very clearly defined to anyone that know anything about it (not stage magic) as the manipulation of natural elements or spiritual energies without the usage of mechanical devices.

You can also look to different culture for the various forms which are all the same across the entire globe.


You can say something randomly happening or a power is magic, but the fact is anyone with a brain would not and to do so is a disservice to the term and a lot of history and further it just wouldn't feel right to most people because it doesn't fit with the definition they innately have of it.

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Original post by Durakken <snip load of codswallop>

Dude, what are you even arguing about? If you can shoehorn all magic systems ever invented into your vague description of magic, you can certainly fit the OP's description of personal magic in there too. Observe:

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Original post by Durakken you are either summoning or in contact with or manipulating the elements or spirits/your spirit included to achieve a result.

Okay, so the OP wants his characters to manipulate their own spirit, and everybody's spirits are different. Bam, end of argument, you can continue on your merry way. In fact, many traditional magic systems can be thought of operating in this fashion, but the player doesn't see it. Consider Final Fantasy IV for example. Why doesn't Tellah just teach Palom and Porom all the spells that he remembers at the summit of Mt. Ordeals? Maybe he is just a selfish jerk bent on avenging his daughter's death, but then, maybe it's just because magic doesn't work that way. Maybe Tellah can't teach Palom to cast Flare because Palom casts it differently.

I don't have a explicit example of everybody having different magic, but the most fitting example I could think of at the moment is in The Obsidian Trilogy by Mercedes Lackey and James Mallory. It features High Magic and Wild Magic, which function completely differently from one another, but they can create similar effects (e.g. both magics can shield a person from harm). I'm sure there are better ones.

Further, some classical descriptions of magic don't fit yours. Many people consider witches brewing a boiling cauldron of unusual ingredients magic. It's featured prominently in the Harry Potter series when Hermione and Barty Crouch, Jr. create Polyjuice Potion, or in general Snape's Potions class.

...

Okay, I got carried away. The point of this whole post is that it's up to the author or game designer to explain (or not explain) the nature of magic. That magic tends to follow a strict set of rules (not the case for Lackey & Mallory's Wild Magic!) is irrelevant.

Regarding the OP's question, it's an interesting concept, kind of a literalization of the phrase, "all the pieces fall into place." It doesn't really seem to me that it would be a central part of gameplay, unless you have the player solve the puzzle or build the spell everytime they want to cause that particular effect. I guess that also depends on the genre of game you're talking about. I think it has potential, but maybe flesh out when and how frequently this puzzle solving or spell building might occur.

Ok a lot to answer, I think i will start with sunandshadow post
to give every one a better pictzure of my thoughts.

I am a fan of coming up with character builds and skill combinations and relating to the CCG example I am a fan of coming up with deck concepts, Iam not a fan of leveling till lvl 40(if I get not bored before that) just to see my build is not effective enough and I have to start over, I am not a fan of things boiling down to one or two builds by character class or having to much skills/magic that are essentially the same but use other affinities (ice, fire, lightning) or just tweak the numbers a little bit and I am not a fan of limiting
players to one way of playing.

So basically I want players to have their own, "personal" build instead of just a copy of build x and I want them to be able to discover and be proud of the spell solutions, combinations, builds they have.

Now answering Argus2, like I said I do not like to limit skills so much by level or having just a tiny tweak sold to me as a different spell.
To solve this a spell customization, building system is a good solution, the player can now tweak spells to his own taste and if you want to have levels you can just modify the strength or effectiveness of the effect according to it but
do not limit gameplay according to level(cause you can create all spells from the beginning).
Well but a spell building system without limits is like an almighty world editor
you need to introduce a cost system for effects, to prevent players running around in godmode.
However each cost system requires balancing and each balancing is almost destinied to have more useful spells and combination, which easily can lead to only one or two dominating strategys.

So I do not limit the effects accesible for one player to prevent monotone, one strategy gameplay, such I can not achieve uniqueness by limiting effects(which seems impossible due to the limited amount of "truly" different effects) the only remaining possibility is to vary the cost so that for each player the optimum builds and solutions vary.
Well but simple varying costs is boring so we give the player a greater challenge by letting them "construct" the spells and letting the costs emerge from that construction.
That way instead of leveling players improve over time by researching no spell realizations and learning to handle them.(For example if we have a spell ingredient system, upon obtainign a new ingredient a player might come up with a new spell build)

Durakken: In a way thats the old realism debate your pursuing, for my purposes you could just substitue the word magic with skills and keep an open mind that these skills include thinks not physical possible in our world(hence why i use magic).

Imelior To what extents these puzzle would be needed when casting is something I am myself yet unsure about, having spells that are just prebuild might make things to boring, it might be nice to have prebuild spell parts, compositions of multiple puzzle pieces that you then arrange in a kind of much easier speed puzzling to cast a spell.
Or we could go away from combat oriented games to what I call survival oriented games.

One example: Your a tiny kobold, gnome, fairy and your in a world of big fellows
daily you struggle to get your food on the table avoid beeing stomped by the bigger ones or beeing victim to natures moods, however you have one advantage, your are a potential powerhouse of magic.
So you figure out your magic to assist you in your daily struggles, maybe you have to travel often to recharge your magic on certain powerspots that semi randomly appear in the land or you have to flee from a drought, volcano etc.

[Edited by - Wush on February 1, 2009 6:37:26 AM]

I'd also like to know what type of combat it will be - real time or turn based? A chessboard-type screen where terrain is part of the strategy or not? Do you want to have elements or not?

Aside from that, to solve this problem I would suggest making 2 lists. One list of the properties you have seen spells have in other games, such as: casting speed, casting time, instant damage vs. dot, self hp, armor, or speed increase, enemy armor or speed decrease, casting cost (different types of cost), hit rate increase or decrease, temporary invisibility, reflect damage, summons, create traps, get extra loot, etc. The other list of the type or strategies you would like to enable players to use.

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Original post by Durakken Magic is based on a few principles... you are either summoning or in contact with or manipulating the elements or spirits/your spirit included to achieve a result.

Come now, not even the magic in the iconic fantasy book of this generation functions like that. I am referring to Harry Potter of course, in which wizards neither are "summoning nor in contact with nor manipulating the elements nor spirits." Unless, of course, you're using "elements" to refer to all of matter, in which case, good job, you've just managed to say "Magic does stuff."

And who says you can't use mechanical devices? Alchemy is often treated as a field of magic, and it relies upon all sorts of funky equipment! (Exhibit a: the Elder Scrolls series.)

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Original post by Wush However each cost system requires balancing and each balancing is almost destinied to have more useful spells and combination, which easily can lead to only one or two dominating strategys.

Good point - that's typically the case, I believe (e.g. Bethesda's fantasy games). And your solution of requiring spell construction to provide strategic diversity seems sound. I think I'd enjoy playing a game where I was forced to try to create the best spells based on my particular circumstances. I think some of the Ultima games try to do this - you had to have certain combinations of items to cast spells.

The only thing I would disagree with is the number of truly different effects being limited. I call the number of different effects in a game its interactive breadth, and one of my major projects is devising a system to maximise the number of effects available to game designers. On top of that, I intend to write a game with spell-building as its primary focus, however I'll be limiting spell-creation 'components' with a process similar to levelling.

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Original post by DurakkenEvery form of magic that would be called magic in fantasy or mythology follows what I posted.

Look, you need to stop watching Naruto, and do a lot more reading before making such ridiculous claims. Consider Feist's depiction of magic as extension of skill (one step further than juggling with one hand is juggling with no hands), or Arthur C Clarke "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.". Magic is based on metallurgy in more than a few books.. Fact is, you've formed an internal definition of 'magic' that is based on nonsensical restrictions, which you're quite welcome to do within the confines of whatever game/story setting you have in mind, but don't come here and call people brainless when they don't adhere to it.