What NPCs and players can do should be exactly the same. NPCs are nothing but players automatically controlled by a machine.
So if an NPC can do something, I should be able to do it to.

Balanced economy! Most MMOs the economy quickly gets out of hand. I'm pretty sure I'm just dreaming here, but I took this opportunity to input my 10 cents! :)

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Original post by DarkHorizon As time goes on, I want to marry, and bear offspring. I want to watch my son grow older. I want to pass down my grandfather's battered and battle-worn longsword to him when he is of age. I want to teach him to take the family name and make it something great, something to be remembered for generations to come. I want to grow old, and eventually pass on to the next life. I want to know that, in doing so, I have left my mark on this world, and that my friends and family will mourn my death through celebrating my life. I want to do so, knowing that my legacy is intact, and somewhere, my son is making the family proud. Then I want to see the game-server's message boards flooding in response to my character's passing, knowing that they too are striving for the same sort of virtual life, community recognition, and strong roleplaying standards that I did.

Avatar aging and permadeath = DO NOT WANT

Other players mourning the death of your avatar is psychologically unlikely - do you imagine yourself mourning the death of 100 other people's avatars? Because that's the dynamic that would have to be going on to get 100 people mourning the death of yours. Also, mourning is an unpleasant emotion, who wants to feel that, and what about the large percentage of players who get angry enough to send death threats to the developers or depressed enough to attempt suicide when their avatar dies?

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Original post by sunandshadow Quote: Original post by DarkHorizon As time goes on, I want to marry, and bear offspring. I want to watch my son grow older. I want to pass down my grandfather's battered and battle-worn longsword to him when he is of age. I want to teach him to take the family name and make it something great, something to be remembered for generations to come. I want to grow old, and eventually pass on to the next life. I want to know that, in doing so, I have left my mark on this world, and that my friends and family will mourn my death through celebrating my life. I want to do so, knowing that my legacy is intact, and somewhere, my son is making the family proud. Then I want to see the game-server's message boards flooding in response to my character's passing, knowing that they too are striving for the same sort of virtual life, community recognition, and strong roleplaying standards that I did. Avatar aging and permadeath = DO NOT WANT Other players mourning the death of your avatar is psychologically unlikely - do you imagine yourself mourning the death of 100 other people's avatars? Because that's the dynamic that would have to be going on to get 100 people mourning the death of yours. Also, mourning is an unpleasant emotion, who wants to feel that, and what about the large percentage of players who get angry enough to send death threats to the developers or depressed enough to attempt suicide when their avatar dies?

There are hordes of players who would agree with you. But they are not 100% of the population of RPGers.

If a player is suicidal, then it is the responsibility of his/her peers (in Real Life) to take action. Not the administrators of an online game who have things to do other than pander to the psychologically unstable.

If death threats need to occur, then so do police investigations, legal litigation, and the cutting of umbilical cords attached to mommy and daddy's credit cards in order to remove such destructive players from an online community.

I agree that mourning is an unpleasant emotion. But players can only benefit from learning to separate emotions from the fictional. This only leads to emotional and intellectual growing. (Or death threats followed by suicide.)

Thanks for enlightening me about how wrong my opinion really is.

Permadeath is good. It means you have to be careful of what you are doing, since your life is at stake, making the game much more exciting.
That also means it is more difficult to build a strong fairly old character, which makes it a more enjoyable achievement.

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Original post by loufoque Permadeath is good.

Entirely depends on the gameplay and cannot be succesful in every thinkable situation.

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Original post by loufoque It means you have to be careful of what you are doing, since your life is at stake, making the game much more exciting.

This might very well be true in most of those thinkable cases.

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Original post by loufoque That also means it is more difficult to build a strong fairly old character, which makes it a more enjoyable achievement.

A higher difficulty level does not always equal more enjoyment for the majority... In most cases it will result in more frustration, so that is completely eliminates the purpose of having perma-death.


Perma-death is an extremely context sensative subject and shouldn't be treated lightly. Think in a World of Warcraft PoV for example, can you succesfully implement Perma-death there? The straight answer is NO!

Presume as a newbie you are leveling your character at a slow pace and you reached a point where you simply won't turn back (as in, you won't reroll a different character/class), all of the sudden this level capped paladin comes in from nowhere, presses one button and bang you are dead.
That one press of a button nullifies the work of possible +100 hours of real-life time. Will that newbie enjoy the whole experience? I very much doubt it.

World of Warcraft is a good example of a context where perma-death doesn't work at all.
In many cases perma-death is considered to be a hardcore feature. Many don't like it, a small minority do.

If you want to make a game exciting and have some sort of risk involved, make it optional path of choice. If the risk is that high, the reward should scale with it.

This is my point of view on this matter which I just can't leave unstirred :-).

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Original post by Xeile Quote: Original post by loufoque Permadeath is good. Entirely depends on the gameplay and cannot be succesful in every thinkable situation. Quote: Original post by loufoque It means you have to be careful of what you are doing, since your life is at stake, making the game much more exciting. This might very well be true in most of those thinkable cases. Quote: Original post by loufoque That also means it is more difficult to build a strong fairly old character, which makes it a more enjoyable achievement. A higher difficulty level does not always equal more enjoyment for the majority... In most cases it will result in more frustration, so that is completely eliminates the purpose of having perma-death. Perma-death is an extremely context sensative subject and shouldn't be treated lightly. Think in a World of Warcraft PoV for example, can you succesfully implement Perma-death there? The straight answer is NO! Presume as a newbie you are leveling your character at a slow pace and you reached a point where you simply won't turn back (as in, you won't reroll a different character/class), all of the sudden this level capped paladin comes in from nowhere, presses one button and bang you are dead. That one press of a button nullifies the work of possible +100 hours of real-life time. Will that newbie enjoy the whole experience? I very much doubt it. World of Warcraft is a good example of a context where perma-death doesn't work at all. In many cases perma-death is considered to be a hardcore feature. Many don't like it, a small minority do. If you want to make a game exciting and have some sort of risk involved, make it optional path of choice. If the risk is that high, the reward should scale with it. This is my point of view on this matter which I just can't leave unstirred :-).

World of Warcraft wouldn't work with permadeath because it's not designed for it.

A game designed from the beginning to use permadeath could work great, although obviously it would be a minority who enjoy it... the roleplayers and the hardcore gamers.

It would need to be less of a "grind" than the current MMOs, but it could very well work.
I seem to remember a permadeath MMO which has been in development for a while, not sure if it's still being worked on...adellion I think it was called. It looked really interesting just because it wasn't a "kill 60 bats" type of game.

umm.. i'm sure I had a point to make when I started typing this. But i've forgot it.

I very much like uniqueness in any shape or form. Having an item or a skill or an ability, no matter what it may be or what purpose it may serve, if it is unique in the sense that -I- have it, and no one else, it's special to me. Also being able to brag about having said thing doesn't make it any less great to have. :)

I suppose I also very much favor games/classes/characters that in some shape or form require much more human skill in order to progress. I know some find such games "unfair" and "lame", but I'd much rather have a game where I'm good because... well, because I'm good, rather than a game where the one with more potions or the "better" weapon or the higher level wins by default.

Speaking of which, how can a humongously large sword of immeasurable proportions be outperformed a hundredfold by another humongously large sword of seemingly similar proportions? If you're hit by a sword, you're hit by a sword no discussion. How hard it hits depends on where it hits, and where it hits depends on the player's ability to coordinate attack with motion and predict openings in the enemy's defenses. In that sense I suppose I'd much prefer a game with (very) slow gameplay which instead requires a large amount of tactic and logic to win, meaning that maybe up to five to 10 seconds pass between each strike, giving the player enough time to evaluate whatever input is given. On the other hand of course, both friendlies and foes should drop much faster. On that end, I have to say I think the whole idea of health points is ridiculous. If you're hit on the arm with a sword, if it doesn't fall off it'll definitely hurt a lot, possibly even beyond use. Ah well...

Oh, and I think dies should have stayed in the tabletop world. Every time you put randomness into an equation it means you're removing the need for the player to learn, adapt and become good. I'm of the belief that it is very much possible to remove any kind of unnecessary randomness from combat, crafting and whatever features might be in a game, provided you're simply creative enough to think up the way to do it.

... I think I'll end my post here. Strayed a bit off topic in the end.

My goal when in an MMO, aswell as when I look for games to play, is to fullfill some kind of self-realization fantasy.

There's tons of games where you're supposed to become the ruler of the galaxy, but that's just one kind of character. I want to be some kind of Daniel Jackson from the Stargate series who explore ancient ruins and discover long-forgotten alien technologies, or some kind of genious VIP business man walking around with bodyguards. Also using Star Wars-like telekenethic powers when treathened.

I want the ability to have respect from my fellow players. I also don't mind having another player as an ideal. It's the kind of respect and admiration you see in debate forums that I'm thinking of, I'm not sure how it may be implemented though.

Chosen Space, a browser game with in-game forums, faction and planet specific forums, aswell as faction chat comms, probably is the game I know of that is closest to having something like that. More social-networking aspects where you hear alot of other players in a game might help.

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Original post by Nichollan My goal when in an MMO, aswell as when I look for games to play, is to fullfill some kind of self-realization fantasy. There's tons of games where you're supposed to become the ruler of the galaxy, but that's just one kind of character. I want to be some kind of Daniel Jackson from the Stargate series who explore ancient ruins and discover long-forgotten alien technologies, or some kind of genious VIP business man walking around with bodyguards. Also using Star Wars-like telekenethic powers when threatened.]

Yes yes, identity fantasies! I want to be a Don Juan who has every NPC in love with me (including the male ones and the villain!) I want to be the professor on Gilligan's island who single-handedly rebuilds civilization out of bamboo, coconuts, and rocks. I want to be a shapeshifter who actually puts my forms to some sort of _social_ use - pretending to be a real animal, sneaking into places I'm not supposed to be and overhearing interesting gossip or stealing stuff no one would think to guard from a dog, sneaking a peek at NPCs bathing or having sex or whatever, getting myself adopted as a pet by an enemy NPC so I can spy...