The games I find the most fun usually use hit box detection where the size of the object is what it is rather than having no effect in battle like in some game types like RPGs or MMOs where the big monster is still just a target like a tiny monster and its size isn't a disadvantage or advantage. The attack just goes automatically to the target which is what happens in games where nearly everything is determined by numbers and there is little control to the player other than to select an attack and watch still images battle. That is why I like dynamic games like fighting games and other type of action games. Although, I like games that have diversity in the units you choose than to have the same character available to everybody and have only 10 different weapons/attacks available. There should be an action type game with maybe 50 to 100 different kinds of attacks and for it to have customization of characters! And not just changing their skin or clothes, I mean the customization should be taken even higher than that. Let the players choose what size their character is and the range of looks should vary greatly from animal to robot. That way there will be lots of diversity online when encountering other players in battle. If you watch the battles of others, it should be entertaining to see, battles should be filled with all kinds of neat attacks happening every few seconds and the environment being actively influenced by it. I mean, if an attack makes an explosion, it should make an actual dent on the land rather than the land being indestructible. Also, the reason there should be many different kinds of attacks is because in a dynamic system, there should be attacks that take advantage of the physics engine, like a laser type attack that would put holes in trees while other attacks would explode and reform the terrain. Another kind of attack that can't be simulated in something like an RPG is an energy orb attack that would bounce around on the floor unpredictably hitting anything in its way. An entire field covered in those would be fun to dodge especially if you are able to edit your characters speed to be able to dodge with ease while somebody else could choose to use a technique or attack to keep the energy orbs from hitting them. The more options available to handling something the better. It lets the player be creative during the game and makes it more fun. It be neat in a game if you can customize your characters stats and appearence in an action type genre. I'd want to see a fight between behemoth and something tiny. Both should have an equal chance at winning since there would be advantages and disadvantages to their sizes. For example, a spread fire attack with individual projectiles would do more damage on a larger target as some of the projectiles would hit while on a smaller target, most of the shots would miss. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/AnonymousPerson/gamedesign/File0139.jpg Also, in that example, the sporead fire attack is also demonstrating that it doesn't just hit small targets too, but that they are effective at getting fast targets because of how many projectiles they are while they also do a ton of damage to large targets. A faster version of that attack would have weaker shots but would be able to have a higher chance of hitting a fast moving target while their would be a slower version with stronger projectiles that would be good for larger targets. That is why there is a need for many attacks and why there needs to be variation of attacks. The attack at the bottom of the page is a Splash damage type attack, which is good for getting fast moving targets because of the large area its explosion covers making it harder to dodge. Here is an example of customization and allowing for a wide spectrum of things to be made. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/AnonymousPerson/gamedesign/File0143.jpg The middle row shows the different category of sizes and the characters around that are the possible results. For example there would be body types such as unorthodox, insect, beast, insect, robot, humanoid, bird, dragon, and a wide range of other body types. Then there would be the "skin" such as choosing to have fur, metal, feathers, scales, and other types with the possibility of choosing things like the color of it. The obvious selection that is in the image, is choosing size, the silhouttes are just showing some of the different types of bodies rather than that being the body type of that size. Being able to select gender is a given otherwise it won't be fun for female gamers if there are no girl characters to play. There are many other kinds of things in the game that are customizable aside from those. I think this kind of game is able to appeal to a wider audience base due to its over the top customization and entertaining gameplay that has depth in strategy during battle that is action based. Also, I think it is best if it is from third person view, as you would be able to see what you are playing as. First person view is not good for fast paced action games where the character is able to run at up to 100 mph due to not being able to see what is next to you and your vision being restricted. For some types that need to see long distance for their technique, they would get a zoom in feature which would be a type of first person, otherwise, for most other attacks and for normal gameplay, it is third person view. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/AnonymousPerson/gamedesign/UI3.jpg That is how the user interface would look like for this kind of game. Note that the attacks are affecting the environment. [Edited by - Fulgent on September 28, 2008 2:39:17 AM]

So, you think games would be better if there was the ability for you to do far more and there was a lot more content created for all this. Ok.

That is kind of what I mean, although, the part about doing far more should pertain only to battle. There should be many options in battle available to a player in order for the game to be more balanced in competitive play. The extra content would help in making this happen.

Here are some examples of games that allow variety in moves and great control over the character. Although, this isn't a 3D game, but it is a good example of a game that has a lot of options for a player to use during battle.

http://www.youtube.comwatchv=RJedzLpM5xU

The ability to be able to choose a move instantly from a list in real time is extremely fun and makes battles more interesting. Some other games only have maybe three different attacks and it becomes redundant to see the same attacks after a while. In such cases, the attacks should at least be animated in another way everytime to at least make it look like the character is attacking differently.

Here is an example showing the freedom of movement in a 3D game that I speak of. In this game, you can go any direction at any speed based on how you made your machine. This game has hundreds of different attacks, however, how many attacks you can have at once are limited. The best part of this game is how it allows you incredible freedom of movement.



[Edited by - Fulgent on September 30, 2008 9:14:13 AM]

RPG combat is meant to be like that.
If the player has to perform hits and avoid them manually, then it's an Action RPG.

(Note that this terminology varies from people to people, some say action rpgs are just rpgs focused on combat)

What you describe could be a fun minigame, however I think it would be tedious to have to do that throughout an entire RPG game. Most people play RPGs for the story, not to have to move their character to dodge energyorbs every battle. Also if you have 100 attacks to choose from, almost no player will know what attack to choose. Therefore the fights will almost be random, something that get's boring in the long run.
After several hours of play, most gamers probably want to be able to choose wisely what attacks to use. It is often nice to be able to learn a new attack, or buy a new weapon, that gives you the edge for a while. Having 100 attacks from the start won't give most players time to even try them all.
A system where the player has to be creative to choose among an insane amount of options might be nice on paper, but it must have some meaning in the game. What makes one choice better than another?
If it's just random there's no point to the game, then you could just roll dice instead. You could probably make something like a puzzle game in the spirit of your idea, where the player has to put thought or calculation into his choices, where only the really smart and calculating player can get the best attacks.

loufoque: I see. I guess thats about right. Although, I can't find any PC games that let you dodge manually and at the same time let you customize. A lot of information overload on the internet.

Erik Rufolt: Thats how it may appear at first glance. It looks deceptively simple I think. : I The games might just seem to be simple with the hits appearing to not have any special properties, I myself thought that there was no difference between a button that seemed to do punch and the button that seems to do a kick, but in reality, the people who made these games have added a depth that can only be seen by studying the mechanics and attacks. For example, I later find out things like the more far reaching kick has more range than a punch so as to hit somebody advancing on you while the punch was to get somebody who was doing a slow but powerful attack because of its speed. To find out that each attack had its own unique function made things more interesting when I began to use these moves tactically and at the right times.

High level play has a steep learning curve although, those who get there have level of offense that can't be done with only mediocre knowledge of the game. The reason for a list of 100 attacks is because each attack does something different, although this is a list to choose from because most characters have about 20-35 attacks each which is enough for diversity in a fight. I apologize for not being more specific earlier in my other post. I just said 100 attacks since some action games I've seen only have about 10 attacks to choose from in the entire game.

In fighting games, characters already have about that number of attacks, most of them basic in power, while others are more powerful, and about 2 or 3 are extremely powerful. They all have their own uses and any can be used in less than a second by simply pressing a button for the basic attacks and inputting a command for the more powerful attacks. Any of these actions can be done instantly instead of having to pick it from a menu. Although, it requires you to memorize the combination of buttons for the more powerful attacks and its another thing that makes these games so interesting.

In my idea for a game, you start off with about 2 to 3 basic attacks and 1 special attack and there is no leveling rather you gain attacks since more attacks = more power because it would make your character more versatile and allow for flexibility in battle. Although, most of the attacks are learned in about about hour or two of gameplay unlike an RPG. The total you can learn is about 35 out of a large list. Then your character is ready for tournament play which is the focus of the game. And the time spent playing while learning the moves was so that the character was able to get familiar with their moveset. The reason you start off with a low number is so that it is easier to manage while trying to learn the battle system.

I understand what you mean about getting an item and having an edge for a while. It is good in single player modes of a game, however, in games that allow for competition, most people will not like it because it gives a person an unfair advantage over the other. There is something to have an edge, but its not a fun game if the other person is always losing. That is why people must have an equal chance in fighting each other in competitive games. Only boss characters and computer controlled characters have a statistical edge to make up for their intellegence since A.I. is not as resourceful as the human mind. For multiplay, it is about equality and balance while keeping the game fun. Some fighting games have achieved this and have garnered a large fanbase.

On the topic of fighting games, for example in the first link to the 2D fight, the reason its a complex games is because each attack is useful and not simply redundant. Some attacks are unleashed quickly and although do little damage, are good for getting opponents off guard. Other attacks are "overheads" which if the person is blocking low, will hit. Some attacks are best as "anti-air" because they are good at getting an opponent appearing from above. There are also different ways to defend against an opponent in this game, for example in that video you will notice that sometimes a character will make a "blue" block which is the called a parry and leaves the opponent open to an attack. This is also the most difficult block to do because you have to press the button right when they hit you unlike a normal block which you just hold if their attacking you.
The thing about this game is that you are able to unleash any attack insantly and they all have their purpose like I mentioned earlier. Those fighting games also have different stats for their characters like some have higher life and others have high attack and high speed and other variation of stats. Although, these stats aren't customizable in those kind of games.

Although, I admit, this kind of game is draining to play! You'll be tired after about an hour of play. Although, an entire match will last at the most 5 minutes, so you will have a number of battles in that time.

Here are some other examples of that 2D game. The game is deeper than it looks.



I think turn based games and RPGs are good if you want to sit back and play. Although, I prefer games where you actively play it and that demand your attention to win. The games where skill comes into play. The type of games that give you the most flexibility in battle are also the games that allow more of your skill to be involved. The more control you have over the character, the more skill that is able to get through. RPGs only let your tactics and strategies get into the game and not your senses or reaction time into the game. Fighting games of a high quality allow not only your tactics to be involved, but also many of your other skills to be involved in the gameplay.

Edit: Another good example of a fighting game with depth is Guilty Gear X2. It even had a version of the game named Isuka where you could edit the stats of this character such as the power and speed. It also let you select attacks. This sereis itself has many tournaments because of the balance the game has. Other games such as SF3: Third Strike which I used as an example earlier also has tournaments held for it.

[Edited by - Fulgent on October 1, 2008 12:01:30 AM]