With systems like this, I have to ask: Why does it have to be the current character made to change classes?

As WavyVirus said, you already lose some of the background and roleplay through allowing a sudden switch - so is there any reason not to let the player simply create another character which has the desired class and is the appropriate level?

A class change essentially is a character change, especially when you take the standard use of equipment into account, where changing class largely means that you need to change equipment in order to be effective. As far as I can tell in a standard mmorpg setup if you change class the only things that would be the same after the change would be the name and appearance. Is there any benefit in not allowing the player to change those as well, if they wish, by creating a whole new character?



Returning from my tangent to more directly answer the OP:

One factor to keep in mind is "completionist" play. If your character can be whichever class you want, any class-specific quests or content are effectively made accessable to every character - this means you have to be very careful in balancing class-specific content for other classes. eg That mage-specific item reward might be perfectly balanced for a mage to use, but if it has an unforeseen benefit for fighters you will have a flood of characters earning the reward and then switching to fighter and becoming overpowered. You also have to take into account that characters would be able to earn not only the "top level" rewards for their class, but every top-level reward, and mix and match them.

On the opposite side of the coin, if you restrict items so that they are only usable by, or useful to, certain classes then you need to have some sort of system to help when a character changes class, because their previous items will no longer be useful - it will effectively be a character with no items.

Thanks for all the input guys! Appreciated it. :)

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Original post by Si Hao Unless you really did the balance correctly, a character that is focused built on the original classes (fighter, mage, healer, etc) will still outshine the jack-of-all-trades. Most people who play MMORPGs are used to the typical tank, dps, mage, healers combination, even if you allow characters to diversify out they will still stick to the formula.

I am sorry, I don't really get your point. :(

What I am proposing is something like this: Imagine World of Warcraft ("WoW"). You have the Warrior, Mage and Priest class. You pick Warrior and level him to level 20. In WoW, we cannot switch class so we're pretty much stuck with that level 20 Warrior. Suppose Blizzard introduced a Quest that allows players to change their class, retaining their level and skill points but NOT the old skills. E.g. You can now switch your level 20 Warrior into a level 20 Mage, who has the same amount of skill points but you must assign them to Mage skills now.

Players are still confined to the Warrior, Mage, Priest, Paladin and whatever WoW has. (Sorry I don't play WoW. :P)

So basically its WoW with a quest to change class. I don't really get what you mean by "jack-of-all-trades". In my system you can't be a Warrior/Mage or Rogue/Cleric. You can only choose between: Warrior, Mage, Rogue, Cleric. Each has their own skill tree. You cannot bring over your old skills from your old class.

Quote:

Original post by caffiene One factor to keep in mind is "completionist" play. If your character can be whichever class you want, any class-specific quests or content are effectively made accessable to every character - this means you have to be very careful in balancing class-specific content for other classes. eg That mage-specific item reward might be perfectly balanced for a mage to use, but if it has an unforeseen benefit for fighters you will have a flood of characters earning the reward and then switching to fighter and becoming overpowered. You also have to take into account that characters would be able to earn not only the "top level" rewards for their class, but every top-level reward, and mix and match them. On the opposite side of the coin, if you restrict items so that they are only usable by, or useful to, certain classes then you need to have some sort of system to help when a character changes class, because their previous items will no longer be useful - it will effectively be a character with no items.

Good point. I didn't think of this.

1) Class-specific items : I will tag the items as "Mage only" or "Warrior only" etc. So items meant for Mage cannot be used after switching to Fighters.

2) I played a MUD call Medievia in which players have to play through all the classes. Just before they switch class, they would prepare a set of items in their storage to use after they switch. So I guess this won't be an issue since it is a conscious optional choice to switch class - they should be prepared for it.

Any other cons I should look out for? Thanks! :)

Sounds like a comprehensive respecialization system. Respec your character at any time, to any degree that you like. It works great for the player, since they can try out more of the game's content without slogging through the time-consuming chore of training up alts for all the classes, and it ensures that they'll be able to stick with one character until they've done everything they want to do with the game. Also, they'll be able to do what they want with the game faster, and not be "trapped" into playing it for months or years just to keep up with it.

Disadvantages? Sure:

1: Balance. Unless you're running a game that is basically un-solo-able, players will forever be running the flavor of the month, responding to patches and changes by choosing the most advantageous possible setup. Your whole population would change and flow with the game, and you'd have a homogeneous world of min-maxing metagamers, interspersed with frustrated role-players and newbs who don't "get it".

2: Subscription rates. People will be able to play the content faster than you can write it. First-hand experience and the opportunity to transform your Resto shaman into a Ret pally at the drop of a hat, then hop over to Shadow priest would let players do in a few months what would take three years in the current dominant paradigm. Then they quit.

3: Fun factor. Your character would never have any kind of identity, being in total flux at all stages of development. No long-term consequences, no hard decisions, it would be like playing on easy mode with cheats on.

4: Design nightmare. Do you build a game for the metagaming mathematicians, one that presents a challenge to a team of hyper-optimised, perfectly complementary individuals, or do you create a world in which a rag-tag band of misfits can achieve by working together to overcome their private weaknesses? If you cater to the hard core, then you alienate the casual players, and if you cater to the casual gamers, the experience will turn stale once they figure out that there really is a "right way" to do things.

Being able to combine different classes is to me a very important thing in a role-playing game. Building my own character is very enjoyable and it brings me real customization.
Combining skills and abilities is also a fairly interesting challenge; it may unbalance things a little, but what's wrong with favorising people that carefully evolved their character by combining skills with good synergy? Also evolving multiple classes at the same time takes much more time, so it's not like that unbalance comes from nowhere either.

In my opinion, the D&D 3th edition class system is pretty good. I do plan to copy it myself (it's under a liberal license) in my amateur game.

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Original post by Girsanov 2) I played a MUD call Medievia in which players have to play through all the classes. Just before they switch class, they would prepare a set of items in their storage to use after they switch. So I guess this won't be an issue since it is a conscious optional choice to switch class - they should be prepared for it.

Medievia was a realy nice MUD, I enjoyed playing it and the reclassing was well worked out. I think what made the reclassing work though, is that you would start back as a level 1, and you would have to regain levels and learn the new skills of the class. The skills you learned from the previous class would come into play when you reached the level required for the skill, but it would be nerfed. Ultimately, people would "hero" as a particular class, and you would end up playing one of the 4 classes, but you would still be able to use some of the (usefull!) skills from the other classes to some extent which I think made the replay and the quests etc fun to do. (once you reclass, some quests and areas of the game became more accessible to you etc.)

I don't think this system has "flaws" per se, it's more of a game style (which I enjoy, and would love to see in more games!)

[Edited by - rethan on September 29, 2008 5:31:03 PM]

I think your idea has merit, but see a few sticky points here. The first was mentioned before, how change classes affects equipment and other stats. Can your players completely respec their characters at their home base? If they can't, changing a high constitution, low wisdom tank fighter to mage may be possible, but not desirable.

Second, identity, both self-identity and identifying other players. Usually, characters are primarily defined by their class. You are taking that away.

Third, learning curve. Imagine you advance to level 99 with your fighter, occasionally playing as rogue, and one day your friends ask you to play mage. Great, you have this huge selection of spells to choose from, but what do they do? Which will be more efficient in battle? Which just occupy space? You don't know. You never played mage before, even though now you have a high level mage.

All these problems can be overcome, but you should keep them in mind.

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Original post by ruby-lang I think your idea has merit, but see a few sticky points here. The first was mentioned before, how change classes affects equipment and other stats.

(Some good comments, ruby-lang!)

If you've played diablo 1/2 you know that finding great items that are not for your current class sucks, it takes the fun out of that good item find. The benefit of being able to reclass is if you find an item for a mage and you are a warrior, well good, you'll get to use it when you reclass to a mage, and you don't have to make another char to use it. So finding equipment I think ultimately helps boost your looking forward to reclassing.

Quote:

Can your players completely respec their characters at their home base? If they can't, changing a high constitution, low wisdom tank fighter to mage may be possible, but not desirable. Second, identity, both self-identity and identifying other players. Usually, characters are primarily defined by their class. You are taking that away. Third, learning curve. Imagine you advance to level 99 with your fighter, occasionally playing as rogue, and one day your friends ask you to play mage. Great, you have this huge selection of spells to choose from, but what do they do? Which will be more efficient in battle? Which just occupy space? You don't know. You never played mage before, even though now you have a high level mage. All these problems can be overcome, but you should keep them in mind.

The way I see it, these are all a bit related. If you reclass and start as a level 1 (What Medievia did was when you reclass you start as level 1 again, but there is another level that is your overall level that keeps the tabs so you'd be "level 100"). You start out as a noob again, but you have the benefit of being able to prepair for it - getting good items to start out with and possibly good starter items for key levels you will be reaching.) If you start as a lower level, you will be able to learn all the spells in time. I think the one downfall is that it will take you time to reclass. I suppose you could have it so that once you're mastered all the classes, you could reclass at level 99 for that class without having to re-do all the lower levels, but depending on how the leveling is etc, it can be fun.

I think the goal to leveling is different in this strategy. The goal is not to just play as a mage and you're done, the goal is to play as all classes and then stick with the class you like best - but with the added benefit of having some other usefull skills you would not have gotten had you not played the other classes. Having this goal in mind makes you actually want to play all the classes through which is a big benefit to the game for longevity and replayability.

Thanks for all the input! :)

Quote:

Original post by ruby-lang Can your players completely respec their characters at their home base? If they can't, changing a high constitution, low wisdom tank fighter to mage may be possible, but not desirable.

Yes they can completely change their stats. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

Quote:

Original post by loufoque Being able to combine different classes is to me a very important thing in a role-playing game. Building my own character is very enjoyable and it brings me real customization. Combining skills and abilities is also a fairly interesting challenge; it may unbalance things a little, but what's wrong with favorising people that carefully evolved their character by combining skills with good synergy? Also evolving multiple classes at the same time takes much more time, so it's not like that unbalance comes from nowhere either.

Quote:

Original post by Iron Chef Carnage 1: Balance. Unless you're running a game that is basically un-solo-able, players will forever be running the flavor of the month, responding to patches and changes by choosing the most advantageous possible setup. Your whole population would change and flow with the game, and you'd have a homogeneous world of min-maxing metagamers, interspersed with frustrated role-players and newbs who don't "get it". 2: Subscription rates. People will be able to play the content faster than you can write it. First-hand experience and the opportunity to transform your Resto shaman into a Ret pally at the drop of a hat, then hop over to Shadow priest would let players do in a few months what would take three years in the current dominant paradigm. Then they quit. 3: Fun factor. Your character would never have any kind of identity, being in total flux at all stages of development. No long-term consequences, no hard decisions, it would be like playing on easy mode with cheats on. 4: Design nightmare. Do you build a game for the metagaming mathematicians, one that presents a challenge to a team of hyper-optimised, perfectly complementary individuals, or do you create a world in which a rag-tag band of misfits can achieve by working together to overcome their private weaknesses? If you cater to the hard core, then you alienate the casual players, and if you cater to the casual gamers, the experience will turn stale once they figure out that there really is a "right way" to do things.

No I don't want to let my players combine different classes, skills or abilities. I thought I made that very clear in this thread.

Players are forced into fixed classes like Warrior, Mage, Rogue, Cleric etc with fixed skills. (If you switch to a Mage you lose all your Cleric skills but gain all the Mage skills.)

Basically take World of Warcraft. Keep EVERYTHING the same. Add a quest that allows players to change their class, reassign skillpoints/statpoints and keep their level.

Quote:

Original post by Girsanov No I don't want to let my players combine different classes, skills or abilities. I thought I made that very clear in this thread. Players are forced into fixed classes like Warrior, Mage, Rogue, Cleric etc with fixed skills. (If you switch to a Mage you lose all your Cleric skills but gain all the Mage skills.) Basically take World of Warcraft. Keep EVERYTHING the same. Add a quest that allows players to change their class, reassign skillpoints/statpoints and keep their level.

You were quite clear, and that's what I was replying to. Being able to change from one class to another will present the difficulties I described. Being able to "combine classes" to achieve mastery of all skills and attributes simultaneously is a whole different can of worms.

Sticking with the WoW paradigm, what happens when that beast-slaying hunter character gets to the outlands and finds it packed chock-full of demons? Does he keep playing with a handicap due to his skills? Does he enlist the help of other players? With your system, he'd get in the transmogrifier and come out the other side as a paladin, and smite the devils with the righteous fury of the Light. Players would change classes the way EvE players change ships, except in EvE a really good Thorax pilot can't hop into a Raven and turn all his Blaster and Armor skills into Torpedo and Shield skills.