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Original post by LmT Well, it's good to hear that you're getting some things off of your chest; however, from an industry standpoint, ranting won't get you anywhere (except out of a job). You would be better off implementing your ideas in your own game and sway your audience--maybe the industry, too. Actions speak louder than words, sir.

Why does everyone always think I am ranting? It's just a critical analysis of what I see as a problem in MMORPGs. This is not a call for all developers to wake up and fix a horrible mistake in their designs! It is simply the first step to improving something (identifying what needs to be improved). Obviously, if I'm in the industry working on an MMORPG (in any position even if not design), I would not be ranting about how everything needs to be a certain way... I'd just be doing my job. Like I said, this is the game design forum, what is wrong about discussing ideas?

Its just discussion, maybe some future designers will participate and it'll contribute to the creation of a good MMORPG one day.

Cheers,
-Pin

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Original post by shurcool That advice doesn't readily apply to MMOs. It's something most people will only ever dream of creating, so discussing the ideas behind it is a valid activity. Telling someone to make one instead of talking about ideas is like telling some amateur filmmakers on a forum to stop discussing their visions and to make a real movie instead.

False. He said that he is planning to enter the industry. Picture him pitching this at a business meeting and tell me what you see. Yes, that's exactly what I thought.

P.S. Of course it applies to MMOs, he's the next generation...

P.P.S. We can continue this via PM so we don't turn this somewhat decent thread into Arguefest 2008.

Thank you for your time.

MMO's are really interesting from a design pov IMO because they deal with human behavior that is very similar to trading. In the case of an MMO the player is trading their time and money for some value they get from the game.

When it comes to progression of any kind whether it is the level system in WOW, the Tiered item system in WOW, the passive skill system in EVE, or the item/ship system in EVE, or one of the many other examples found in MMOs the act of progression is about encouraging the player by giving them rewards.

From a game designer perspective the question becomes what kind of behavior do you want to reward.

The MMO that I want to play and I want to design is a PVP game of world conquest and world building. I have heard this same desire over and over again from MMO players.

I think the real problem is personal avatar advancement that focuses on the power of the individual player to partake in PVP. I would prefer a system that offered advancement but shifted the reward system to a group based system with a focus on what the individual is providing to the group.

For example if you kill a dragon now you are likely to get an individual reward that helps yourself like a sword.

A group based award for killing the dragon could be a reward to your guild.

An individual award that helps the group could be that you earn honor that allows you to earn subjects that will do work for you. Including building a city or something.

I say soft cap the individual advancement, encourage the use of alts, and have flat progression.

This is a really interesting topic. I personally don't care for rigid levelling, no matter what the game system, i prefer subtle constant changes. For example, the system i am currently working with does use "levels" but levels are used as a reflection of the characters overall abilities, the levels themselves do nothing to advance the character. Every time a character uses a skill, they gain experience in that skill, every increment adds very very slightly to their overall success rate, they receive an increment for a success, and a smaller increment for a failure, eventually, their skill gains a "level" whenever their increments basically add to a full level. Whenever a character uses a skill, it also increments the related attributes a small amount.

In this way, the character is constantly evolving and becoming more powerful, but the character does still need to work on it. I agree that levelling a character just for existing does not really work for me, if the character is idle, they shouldn't progress, that's how i see it at least.

Also, the "Level" of the character really is just a comparison of their total skill and attribute levels, a character with a higher level can be completely useless at any given skill and easily beaten by a lower level who specialises in that particular skill, in this way, the level does not reflect the characters ability to kill for example, but an overall skill level for the character.

The other reason i like this system is that there is no choosing attributes and skills without reason. A character can't just gain a level, and choose to gain skill in something they have never ever used, if a character wants to get better at something, they have to actively practice it.

That's just my personal preference overall, every system has strengths and weaknesses and every system will have some people who like it and others who don't.

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Original post by Stangler The MMO that I want to play and I want to design is a PVP game of world conquest and world building. I have heard this same desire over and over again from MMO players.

While I would love that MMORPG too I think that's only the desire of a very small but very vocal part of the MMO community. Sadly (for the people who want PvP with world implications) the major part of MMORPG players want levels, grinding, items drops and instanced PvE. And from time to time some no-death-penaly-no-world-implications PvP.

So probably instead of "fixing" levels we should search ways of making non-levels systems more attractive to the majority of players.

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Original post by Stangler The MMO that I want to play and I want to design is a PVP game of world conquest and world building. I have heard this same desire over and over again from MMO players.

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Vicente While I would love that MMORPG too I think that's only the desire of a very small but very vocal part of the MMO community.

Have you guys tried playing SAGA? It is an MMORTS and sound like what you're looking for.

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Original post by Vicente Quote: Original post by Stangler The MMO that I want to play and I want to design is a PVP game of world conquest and world building. I have heard this same desire over and over again from MMO players. While I would love that MMORPG too I think that's only the desire of a very small but very vocal part of the MMO community. Sadly (for the people who want PvP with world implications) the major part of MMORPG players want levels, grinding, items drops and instanced PvE. And from time to time some no-death-penaly-no-world-implications PvP. So probably instead of "fixing" levels we should search ways of making non-levels systems more attractive to the majority of players.

Can anything think of examples of full-on MMORPGs that use PvP as their primary form of "grind"?

I've actually been thinking of a MMORPG style that might fit similar needs. I actually think the idea might be implemented in the game by Devcat thats being developed now called Mabinogi: Heroes. Although my complete idea would probbaly lag a bit and require too much time to actually make.

Generally the idea would be to take an ideal RPG that requires some sort of skill when actually fighting and integrate that with a leveling and item system.

If an MMORPG ran similar to a RPG, The 3D Zelda games for example (Twilight Princess being the best example) and use it's fighting controls for real-time battles and puzzle solving in expansive dungeons that require some thought and skill to get past. And combine that with a leveling system that is a little more shallow in developement and combine that with basic item ideas.

I didn't go really in depth because than it would probably lose it's meaning in the thread so generally it would be an MMORPG that you could play either by grinding, or something you could jump into by using skill as a gamer. Experience in the game wouldnt be only be an actual number but would be more like experience in terms of ectually being expereienced in using the controls, weapons, and how to solve dungeon puzzles. Set something like that up with some sort of balanced market that isn't too annoying to use and I think it wouldn't be too bad.

I also figured it would run on some timeline with an interactive plot, but that depends on the developer and stuff.


But yeah, I figured an MMORPG that might actually involve more thinking and skill might be interesting. (and sorry for not being more exact, if you find this confusing I could write a more organized explanation later, but right now Im running off of no sleep again :D)

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Original post by Vicente Quote: Original post by Stangler The MMO that I want to play and I want to design is a PVP game of world conquest and world building. I have heard this same desire over and over again from MMO players. While I would love that MMORPG too I think that's only the desire of a very small but very vocal part of the MMO community. Sadly (for the people who want PvP with world implications) the major part of MMORPG players want levels, grinding, items drops and instanced PvE. And from time to time some no-death-penaly-no-world-implications PvP. So probably instead of "fixing" levels we should search ways of making non-levels systems more attractive to the majority of players.

I think a lot of people want what they want now. PVP does not always provide that.

I think people want a fair fight. PVP systems in MMOs don't always offer that.

I think people want rewards. PVP systems in MMOs don't always offer that.

Considering how PVP has been done I am not surprised you feel the way you do. I don't think people have gotten what they wanted in the past so they don't participate in large numbers.

You can still have levels. I just think you need a soft or even hard cap on them. Even in a non level system you need a soft cap on power gained.

You can still have item drops and instanced PVE. It just needs to have a different reward system as it relates to PVP.

I don't want a stiff death penalty either. It discourages PVP and can mess up an economy. That does not mean you can not have loss and destruction.

I did not mention PVE because it is not what I want, but I would actually go so far as to say that PVE is needed to balance the sides in a PVP world conquest game.

I would also suggest that the way value enters into an economy change. A lot of times you gain value by killing something or mining something. That act is done over a short period of time and then you move on.

Instead value can be added by a larger variety of methods including holding and protecting land. Similar to DAOC's keep system a group of players can capture and hold a stronghold or keep. Surrounding that keep there can be a number of other smaller things to defend. A farm, a mine, a lumberyard, etc. Each providing the reward for holding the keep.

Holding a keep can also act like holding a territory in Risk, allowing you to attack the territories(keeps) bordering that keep. It doesn't even have to be overly complex code wise, it could be based on respawning and travel.

You can also get the players into the PVE game their enemy faces. You complete a PVE quest and now your enemy has to deal with stronger PVE enemies in their backyard.

Something like DAOC Darkness Falls is also great, both PVE fans and PVP players liked it.

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Original post by PinWang Quote: Original post by Vicente Quote: Original post by Stangler The MMO that I want to play and I want to design is a PVP game of world conquest and world building. I have heard this same desire over and over again from MMO players. While I would love that MMORPG too I think that's only the desire of a very small but very vocal part of the MMO community. Sadly (for the people who want PvP with world implications) the major part of MMORPG players want levels, grinding, items drops and instanced PvE. And from time to time some no-death-penaly-no-world-implications PvP. So probably instead of "fixing" levels we should search ways of making non-levels systems more attractive to the majority of players. Can anything think of examples of full-on MMORPGs that use PvP as their primary form of "grind"?

There were points in DAOC where realm points were the primary reward being sought after. The PVP in question was largely dependent on killing other players.

I think killing other players is a fine way to earn a reward but it is essentially like a FPS map that determines the winner based on frag count as opposed to some objective.

A mix of frag counts and PVP objectives would be better. In a complex economy it is a lot easier to offer a variety of rewards for different actions. When you just have an avatar to develop or items to gain the economy gets pretty straight forward fast.