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Original post by Kest There's no such thing as redundant motivation when it is applied to fun.

I suppose so, in that case the only real issue is that your adding additional complexity and game balance considerations for a relatively small return in game play value.

I'm sure it can be done well but my general experience has been adding too many stats, skills and abilities has a negative effect on game play.

What if the character stats are all placed in the mid-range in the begining of the game (ie - the character is O.K. at everything). And using skills would boost the stats directly related to the used skill while lowering the stats unrelated to it (by equal amounts)? Balancing the skill/stat relationships might be a little challenging but the character would then be defined by their 'practiced' skills rather than numbers and 'points'. So to have a character that excells at magic, you've got to use magic.

- Just a thought
Xyphyx

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Original post by Xyphyx What if the character stats are all placed in the mid-range in the begining of the game (ie - the character is O.K. at everything). And using skills would boost the stats directly related to the used skill while lowering the stats unrelated to it (by equal amounts)?

The player would continuously use the skills that are useful to them, so those skills would max out, while the others, which are not being used anyway, are reduced. I don't see how this would do much to enhance the game. It could actually force them into a very deep route that prevents them from exploring other options in special situations. Such as where they may want to use a skill that is rarely used because it makes the most sense in that one particular application. That skill would be zero, and practically worthless.

The design concept you're referring to may be great for other implementations, though. Especially in situations where each one of the balancing stats are constantly put into use.

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Original post by Kaze I suppose so, in that case the only real issue is that your adding additional complexity and game balance considerations for a relatively small return in game play value.

Measuring the size of the return for the feature is the point of this discussion. I'm not so ready to consider its potential to be small. Under the right conditions, I believe it may have just as much potential as any great RPG skill or stat, while never ceasing to motivate like they do.

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I'm sure it can be done well but my general experience has been adding too many stats, skills and abilities has a negative effect on game play.

And we're still referring to stats and skills that promote fun gameplay? Could you provide some examples?

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Original post by Kest ...A random example would be a "motivation" state. For a character example, a medic character could earn motivation by healing wounds, and could lose motivation over time, and/or by losing allies, and/or by having allies or oneself be attacked. The motivation state could add bonus points to the health that is restored through medical treatment, as well as temporarily boost several other skills and attributes.

I've been pondering a similar concept as part of my game idea, and think it definitely has potential. As others have pointed out though, it needs to be handled carefully.

As has been mentioned, the problem with a standard bar-that-fills-up approach is that the player will naturally feel that the bar being maxed out is the "correct" state of their character, and any reduction is a flaw to be corrected (assuming that the bar only ever decays slowly rather than an all-at-once drain like the adrenaline bar in Dark Messiah). While technically in this case the bar being empty is the absense of a buff rather than an actual status ailment, but if it's possible to maintain the buff at all times, the player will feel compelled to do so.

I think a good way to escape this perception is to add balance. Rather than having either no motivation (bar empty) or strong motivation (bar full), you add a whole extra length to the bar below what used to be empty, going all the way down to strong DEmotivation. What's more, rather than the bar decaying all the way to the bottom, it "decays" toward the middle. This changes the perception of the no-motivation state completely, making it appear neutral rather than bad. To further reinforce the balance, you can have the decay be stronger the further away their current rating is from neutral. This way, their rating will oscillate rather than simply drifting up.

This also opens up opportunities for adaptation based on other things such as character interection. Let's say that two characters form a strong bond over the course of the game. This could, for example, move their "neutral line" up by +10 when they're in the party together, giving them a higher rating on average over time.

The biorythm system in Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn is kind of like this, except the oscillation is too rigid and regular for my liking.

Here's another problem with the general concept. If the bonus that a state provides is significant, a player may feel compelled to perform useless tasks in order to have a better chance with important tasks.

Random example: a hacker/engineer may feel compelled to hack into several useless computers in order to better crack a difficult electronic lock on an important door. Hacking may be fun in itself, but probably not when you're hacking something useless. And in this case, the game may not be able to distinguish between the two, since the player's goals may be the deciding factor.

At the root, this is the same general problem with role playing games that provide specific types of experience for specific types of activities. Also those that increase specific skills when players perform specific actions. In these games, players must go out of their way to perform actions that they may not like in order to better themselves in specific areas that relate to what they do like. It's the reason I opted for generic experience that can be earned by doing anything and be spent anywhere. Players are free to do anything they find fun in order to progress.

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Since I brought up the problem, I thought I should mention at least one example of where it doesn't exist. Motivation could be increased each time a character takes down a hostile without taking damage from them. Motivation could decrease when the character accidently harms innocent civilians. This can't be farmed for productivity in a combat game, but it still creates incentives to accomplish certain things and avoid certain things where there may have been little to no incentive before.

[Edited by - Kest on May 18, 2008 7:40:59 AM]

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Original post by Kest Since I brought up the problem, I thought I should mention at least one example of where it doesn't exist. Motivation could be increased each time a character takes down a hostile without taking damage from them. Motivation could decrease when the character accidently harms innocent civilians. This can't be farmed for productivity in a combat game, but it still creates incentives to accomplish certain things and avoid certain things where there may have been little to no incentive before.

I really like this idea. I was just thinking a better way to model it in game might be to lower the motivation bar if the player takes a hit and raise it if he makes a kill, that way you wouldnt have to track the damage to the player the enemy did. Also, still reduce the bar if the player damages an enemy.
What would the player get for keeping the motivation high? I would favor a granular bonus that was given linearly to the %full of the bar. (50% bonus for 50% full bar)

What about madness?
A simple conversation with someone, prescribed drugs or sleep or something could bring the player back from madness. The more you leave him to get madder, the more extreme things he does, and might be harder to control, in some situations that might even be desirable.

Also I would warn against using motivation as an attribute that can be controlled so easily - it suggests to the player that his character might be bored- and if is character is getting bored - maybe this is all a bit boring...

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Original post by JasRonq What would the player get for keeping the motivation high?

I don't really know. I kind of just came up with it on the spot. It could provide a minor boost to many different skills. Such as increasing all skills related or based on fortitude. Pain threshold, damage resistance, stamina threshold, etc.

In any case, I would definitely agree on a linear granular boost. Actually, I think just about all effects provided by these types of states should be granular. Except perhaps something special like anger, where the character bursts into berserk mode when it fills up. Or intimidation, where the character panics when it fills up.

This reminds me of part of the discussion on the death event in games and its punishment to poor players, etc. If you died, and we need a penalty for your death, should it be something that is going to hamper the fight at hand? After all, you had enough trouble first time, the flip side presenting itself here is obviously, if you did well enough to get this bonus, do you need a bonus to make it easier? Probably not, even if you just managed it, you are still doing well. So what might be appropriate?

A thought just this second, what if you have an experience multiplier (small) based on this meter, the higher your skill, the faster you gain experience. Of course, it could be argued that those that struggled to finish the fight need the experience more, but otoh if you flew through the battle, you could use higher level content. hm, im still not sure about this. Maybe this could be the basis of an internal dynamic difficulty setting.