Quote: Original post by xor
You could do like Dark Galaxy, and I suppose many other games out there.
Allow player registration for a while without allowing them to join the universe, when you feel the number of registrations is reasonable, open up the universe and notify everyone registered by email.

That's another good solution, and fairly easy to implement too. All I would have to do is turn off the PayPal button until the game is open to the registrants. They would still have access to the player's section of the site once registered.

I'm taking notes. Gamedev is a HUGE help!

Quote: Original post by HinDRAncE
personally i dont think the refund idea is good at all....say i sing up, play for 6 months, buy like $200 of land, and one day i decide to quit. then i just get my land refunded, and i end up playing for free, meanwhile you spent some 2 dollars woth of server per month on me alone.

Also, you would get ALOT of complaints from pepole getting their system stolen from. and if you get a high level *ss (which you will) then you have a bunch of pepole quitting and getting their remaining systems refunded because some dude is killing them.

There's a one dollar spread between the purchase and sale cost of any piece of territory. If you spent $200, the most you'd be able to sell that territory back for would be $166. But that's a much better deal than Second Life. I don't think you can sell your land back to Linden Labs.

Also, on the gambling question I think I may be OK. There is a game called "Entropia" that allows the players to make and lose money through the game's internal economy.

Quote: Also, on the gambling question I think I may be OK. There is a game called "Entropia" that allows the players to make and lose money through the game's internal economy.

I want to expand on this a little, because this legal issue is even more on topic for this forum than my original question.

I've never played Entropia but I've looked through forums about it. Apparently player's aren't too happy with the amount of work (I think it's called "sweat points or something in the game) that they have to do to earn any real money. I guess you can click around for hours and make a few pennies or something. Also, there are monsters which drop items which may have real world value, but there IS a random element to what they drop.

I'm hoping that if Entropia can get away with being a virtual sweatshop and a virtual slot machine, then I can get away with what is essentially "chess for money."

I have to ask an attorney of course, but I think the essential differences between my business model and online gambling are:

1. There is no random element (like in Entropia)
2. Players are not playing against a "house." They are playing against each other.

I edited the earlier post but should have created another one instead.


Imagine I invest $10 in a property.
I discover an exploit.
I take over millions of dollars of stuff.
I demand that you pay me cash.

Do you have the bank account to handle that situation? If your program becomes popular, this *will* happen.

(Your ToS rule #4, "You further agree not to attempt to sue or otherwise hold the owner(s) of this site liable for any loss you incur as a result of playing HyperDonut" provides you no protection. You really need a lawyer!)

Quote: Original post by frob
I edited the earlier post but should have created another one instead.


Imagine I invest $10 in a property.
I discover an exploit.
I take over millions of dollars of stuff.
I demand that you pay me cash.

Do you have the bank account to handle that situation? If your program becomes popular, this *will* happen.

(Your ToS rule #4, "You further agree not to attempt to sue or otherwise hold the owner(s) of this site liable for any loss you incur as a result of playing HyperDonut" provides you no protection. You really need a lawyer!)

The only "stuff" there is to take over is some other player's territory. And they've already paid me for that. So I would have the money to cash you out (plus $1 per territory extra for me). A player can't take over an empty territory in the game. They can only gain territory by buying it, or taking it in battle from another player (who first had to buy it or take it in battle). So at the very beginning of the chain of ownership of any piece of territory is a player who bought it from me.

I'll definitely take your advice to talk to a lawyer of course. I just wanted to put a silly TOS in there for right now before I released the game. :)

Based on the feedback so far, I've disabled the PayPal button in the game to prevent anyone from depositing any cash if they happen to find the site from this thread. I think this is a sensible precaution to take while I implement some of the suggestions here and speak with an attorney.

Thank you everyone for all your help so far! I'm out for the night, but to add more value to the thread, I'll report what I find out about the legal issues we've discussed. I'll keep checking in here before that as well of course to see if there are any other suggestions.

I read your explanation of a 3 torus, and I'd just like to mention that the fundamental group of a 3 sphere is the trivial group which is obviously Abelien.

Quote: Original post by ibebrett
I read your explanation of a 3 torus, and I'd just like to mention that the fundamental group of a 3 sphere is the trivial group which is obviously Abelien.

Oh great, a topologist, LOL! I barely even remember the 5 axioms of group theory and have only a very vague notion of how it relates to algebraic topology. That's why it says "I get it (sort of)." I thought the distinction was that one had the abelian property and one didn't, but I guess that's not it. I'll change that sentence to say something about the genus then.

OK, here's what I've concluded.

1. Lawyers cost money
2. Lawyers work at the same time I do, so it's hard to see one.
3. It's easier to seek forgiveness than to seek permission.
4. Wait for revenues to be worth it, THEN do all the legal stuff.


Reason #1: They don't have a clue anyway

I'm not an attorney, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I did a little research anyway. First of all, here's a paper which specifically addresses MMORPGS and internet gambling laws.

http://webpages.acs.ttu.edu/mmetheni/Internet%20Gambling%20and%20the%20MMORPG.htm

Unfortunately the writer advocates more regulation (bleh), but I think the paper also illustrates why this won't work. Human behavior online is developing at a pace where it is not only moving beyond the control of regulation, but beyond the understanding of regulators as well. In a world where a federal judge doesn't even know what a website is, the legal world not only doesn't have the answers, many don't even know the questions.

I also looked at some articles regarding in-game casino operators inside Second Life. The upshot there was the same. The courts and the Justice Department don't seem to even be able to provide Linden Labs with guidance on what does and does not constitute online gambling. So people are running huge casinos inside SL and no one's going after them (yet). And I'm pretty sure that they'll go after Linden Labs LONG before they come after me for doing something that isn't even close to what's going on inside SL.


Reason #2: HyperDonut doesn't meet the definition.

The 2006 law regarding internet gambling is Section 5262, and it defines a bet as the staking or risking of property in order to win something of value based on the outcome of:
a contest of others
a sporting event, or
a game subject to chance
The full text of the law is here if anyone's interested.
http://www.playwinningpoker.com/online/poker/legal/uigea/


Reason #3

While going through all this research and doing a search for a good e-commerce attorney in my area and so forth, something suddenly occurred to me. Why am I worried about being sued? I don't even own a BED. What are they going to take, my last two packages of Ramen noodles?


Conclusion

So while seeking legal advice is a good idea if you can afford it, I've decided to put that off until such time (if ever) that the revenues from the game warrant it. If the game never gets off the ground, then I won't have wasted my money on a bunch of legal fees for nothing. If it does get off the ground, then I'll have the money to spend on legal fees and a confirmed good reason for spending it.

Quote: 3. It's easier to seek forgiveness than to seek permission.

As a small business? No way. This is a great way to end up very solidly screwed, and Lord help you if you're not incorporated because they will come after you, not your game.

Quote: I also looked at some articles regarding in-game casino operators inside Second Life. The upshot there was the same. The courts and the Justice Department don't seem to even be able to provide Linden Labs with guidance on what does and does not constitute online gambling. So people are running huge casinos inside SL and no one's going after them (yet). And I'm pretty sure that they'll go after Linden Labs LONG before they come after me for doing something that isn't even close to what's going on inside SL.

SL banned casinos quite some time ago; I believe they did so last year. If you're going to think you're smarter than the lawyers paid to work on this stuff...I suggest you at least be up-to-date. Remember that the Justice Department is only part of the situation: you need to take into account the possibility that you will be sued.

Quote: http://www.playwinningpoker.com/online/poker/legal/uigea/

Mind you, IANAL, but I've had this same discussion myself a couple of times. Even a fully deterministic system, like yours, could be ruled to be gambling if your own actions are affected significantly by the independent actions of others. (Should that be the case? No, but it's always possible-to-plausible, and it's safest to assume that you will be sued and plan for that contingency instead of hoping they won't and having no safety net.)

Quote: While going through all this research and doing a search for a good e-commerce attorney in my area and so forth, something suddenly occurred to me. Why am I worried about being sued? I don't even own a BED. What are they going to take, my last two packages of Ramen noodles?

They can take money you don't even have yet. In some/many jurisdictions, they can garnish any wages you make from here to God-knows-when. And demolish your credit rating. And probably do a number to your reputation (and when running a business--which you are--your reputation is everything).

Quote: So while seeking legal advice is a good idea if you can afford it, I've decided to put that off until such time (if ever) that the revenues from the game warrant it. If the game never gets off the ground, then I won't have wasted my money on a bunch of legal fees for nothing. If it does get off the ground, then I'll have the money to spend on legal fees and a confirmed good reason for spending it.

This is pretty shortsighted, especially when running as a sole proprietorship/working under DBA. You might get lucky, but I would think it to be a pretty chancy risk to take.

Mona can probably elaborate and correct me if I'm wrong, but this flies in the face of everything I've ever learned about running a business. If you're going to do this, you should seriously incorporate. At that point you also may (I stress may) be able to come up with a source of business financing.