Hi, Let me introduce myself, my name's Chris Grey and I'm just starting out in freelance composing for games. As of yet I have little to no experience, so I'd like to get as much advice and feedback from the community as I can about my music, how to gett work, what to charge etc.. I'd also like to get to know the community here better, so here are some links to a short bio and my work; any comments and suggestions are most welcome. http://www.soundclick.com/cgreymusic - finished work I have done for free for free games http://www.cgreymusic.co.uk - my site with demo reel http://www.iacmusic.com/artist.aspx?id=17844 - my prog rock/metal music Furthermore, if you are interested in hiring me, please get in touch, Thanks everyone, Chris

Hi Chris,

Welcome to Gamedev. I've listened to your music and here are my thoughts:

You have some nice variety of melody and harmonies, which is a major selling point when wanting to compose professionally. Your samples are not bad, but not the best sounding I've heard. Your music definitely sounds like video game music, and I mean that in a good way. It is interesting enough to make someone want to keep the volume on while they're playing but not too intrusive to get in the way of the game.

The music for Bombs Away reminds me of the Mario Bros games- where different levels would have themes very closely related...but arranged differently.

It seems like electronica music is more your strength than orchestral. What I'd do if I were you is study (and listen to!)orchestral pieces as much as you can. The more you know you get used to the ways orchestras have been used (in various settings) the more ideas you'll have about what works and doesn't work.

Also getting better samples will allow you to have more inspiration when writing orchestral pieces. Take a step back and look at your demo as a whole:

How much of each style is represented?
Are there any styles absent?
How many different moods are represented?

You want to impress the client with your versatility.

How do you get work? Network like crazy. Get your name out there.

How much to charge? Well that really depends on you. You're starting out, so experience is not a forte yet so I'll charge on the cheaper side. It is a good idea to set up a rubric, for example:

Cost of music:

$2.00 per minute composed
So a five minute piece would be: $ 10.00
*these numbers were just picked off the top of my head*

Some general advice:

*Always, always, ALWAYS work under a written agreement, or contract. Even if you're working for free, draft up something that states the agreement between you and the crew. This can help protect you and the project later on. I've been burned once by a "company" because I foolishly didn't work under contract and they tried to steal my music without paying me a dime. I was able to resolve the situation, but I had to fight hard. Save yourself the trouble.

*Read Aaron Mark's book "The Complete Guide to Game Audio" This book will help you immensely! It provides sample contracts and NDAs that will help you learn what is in them.

*Always check if a project needs exclusive or non-exclusive rights. If they do require non-exclusive rights that gives you the right to sell the music and/or SFX to other projects. These are generally cheaper. If they want exclusive rights, then you give the rights over to company and these are more expensive. The reason why is this is usually the only time you can profit from you work. Don't under sell yourself.

*We've all worked for free, but I'd limit that if I were you, especially if the project has retail aims. Working for free, in the long run, hurts the composer-sound designer industry because it undermines those professionals trying to make a living at this. You don't have to charge an arm or an leg, but if you're going to put hard work, passion and energy into this music (and sound) then a company should be willing to compensate something for that. (Even getting $100 for all that work is better than nothing).

*Attend conferences, master classes and clinics that deal with this subject. Always be willing to learn more, because that is what keeps you on the edge.

*Be a nice guy. I've landed the jobs I have because I didn't act like God's gift to music, and try to always treat people nicely. I didn't know this at first, but in both jobs, the guys before me acted like total snobs, were rude and really put off the team. Always remember: They're not just hiring your music- they're hiring you as a person. No one wants to work with a jerk.

*Have some tough skin and be ready to hear negative things about your music. So you've poured your heart into this track and then the team lead, or producer says "I don't like it." While it is okay to debate why you think this piece works, ALWAYS do so in a professional and calm manner. I've had to do redrafts before, and while it may be frustrating, almost every time the second time around yeilded music that fit even better. Don't take things personally. If you can't take criticism, sometimes blunt criticism about your work...this may not be the right job for you.

*Learn as many instruments as you can, and be able to play them well. This does several things for you. Each new instrument you learn gives you a deeper understanding of how that instrument works and how better to write music for it. Also, it gives you another recording option instead of having to rely on samples...which can sound fake. I'm taking more guitar lessons to get better at that instrument and I already play most of the woodwinds (except for the double reeds), piano, trombone and recorder. I also sing and have been a conductor and have taught band. If possible, take private lessons.

*Read Mixing Audio by Bob Katz. This book goes really in depth in the mixing realm....which is extremely important. You can have a great piece of music, but with crappy production it can ruin it. Vice versa, you can have a decent piece of music with a great production and it can raise it up some notches.

*Always look for creative ways to make your music sound unique, or more realistic.

*Consider taking private lessons for composition and/or production, or get a mentor in the biz (if possible) to work with for a while. Just watch the way that professional works and manages files, time and the creative process. You'll learns TONS if you're with the right person.

*Learn as many software and hardware set ups as you can. This isn't so bad because if you learn one platform, then you can basically pick up another one. There is a brief period of getting used to what the new program names things or different steps...but the basic principles are still there. At work I use Logic 6, Komplete 4 and ProTools HD 6. At home I use Sonar Producer 6, Reason 3, Acid Pro 4, Sound forge 8 and East West sample libraries. The more platforms you know, the easier it will be to step into a pre-existing studio that is already set up with hardware and software.

I hope that helps!

Nathan posted an exhaustive list of useful points that covered essentially everything, so all I can really add is that I quite enjoyed your music. Jazz Club was repetitive without feeling so, while RPG At Sea was extremely pleasant to listen to. The mood change flowed extremely well. I personally love your work, so well done! Even outside the game environment, I find your music great to listen to. Great genre range, great style...if only I was programmer and could hire you!

Thanks for both of your responses.

Nathan, I really appreciate you taking the time to give me such a comprehensive reply. That information will be invaluable to me, so thank you! I think you're right that my samples aren't exactly great. It's something I've been looking into and I'm looking at upgrading my computer and getting the Eastwest Quantum orchestra software. I'm glad you thought Bombs Away sounded mario-like as that is what the client requested :)
Again, I think you're right about my orchestral music - I have to admit that I haven't studied a great deal of classical music and so I'm having to catch up by listening more intently to classical based computer game soundtracks and movie soundtracks for the musical devices, structures and the combination of instruments used. I had wondered whether just to specialise in rock and electronic music for games, but I take it that having the versatility to be able to write orchestral music is quite an important part of the job so I will work on it. Anyway, thanks again Nathan, as I say, your advice is very much appreciated.

Lily, thanks for your encouraging words and for taking the time to reply. The mood flow was something I tried to pay particular attention to when I was composing "RPG at Sea", so I'm glad you think that it works!

Quote: Original post by CGreyMusic
Thanks for both of your responses.

Nathan, I really appreciate you taking the time to give me such a comprehensive reply. That information will be invaluable to me, so thank you! I think you're right that my samples aren't exactly great. It's something I've been looking into and I'm looking at upgrading my computer and getting the Eastwest Quantum orchestra software. I'm glad you thought Bombs Away sounded mario-like as that is what the client requested :)
Again, I think you're right about my orchestral music - I have to admit that I haven't studied a great deal of classical music and so I'm having to catch up by listening more intently to classical based computer game soundtracks and movie soundtracks for the musical devices, structures and the combination of instruments used. I had wondered whether just to specialise in rock and electronic music for games, but I take it that having the versatility to be able to write orchestral music is quite an important part of the job so I will work on it. Anyway, thanks again Nathan, as I say, your advice is very much appreciated.

Lily, thanks for your encouraging words and for taking the time to reply. The mood flow was something I tried to pay particular attention to when I was composing "RPG at Sea", so I'm glad you think that it works!

Most people will say, if you want to score films, study film scores. However, games are a little different. Study the art of scoring the game, but be careful which soundtracks you study :p There are a lot of good and BAD game soundtracks. The music might fit the game well, which is the one of the ultimate goals, but when people come to your site they won't be impressed with music of that same calibur because they are listening at a desk in an office or at home, instead of in an epic boss battle.

Quote: Original post by Sean R Beeson

Quote: Original post by CGreyMusic
Thanks for both of your responses.

Nathan, I really appreciate you taking the time to give me such a comprehensive reply. That information will be invaluable to me, so thank you! I think you're right that my samples aren't exactly great. It's something I've been looking into and I'm looking at upgrading my computer and getting the Eastwest Quantum orchestra software. I'm glad you thought Bombs Away sounded mario-like as that is what the client requested :)
Again, I think you're right about my orchestral music - I have to admit that I haven't studied a great deal of classical music and so I'm having to catch up by listening more intently to classical based computer game soundtracks and movie soundtracks for the musical devices, structures and the combination of instruments used. I had wondered whether just to specialise in rock and electronic music for games, but I take it that having the versatility to be able to write orchestral music is quite an important part of the job so I will work on it. Anyway, thanks again Nathan, as I say, your advice is very much appreciated.

Lily, thanks for your encouraging words and for taking the time to reply. The mood flow was something I tried to pay particular attention to when I was composing "RPG at Sea", so I'm glad you think that it works!

Most people will say, if you want to score films, study film scores. However, games are a little different. Study the art of scoring the game, but be careful which soundtracks you study :p There are a lot of good and BAD game soundtracks. The music might fit the game well, which is the one of the ultimate goals, but when people come to your site they won't be impressed with music of that same calibur because they are listening at a desk in an office or at home, instead of in an epic boss battle.

If you wouldn't mind me asking, what kind of scores or soundtracks would you recommend listening to? I'm just getting started in composing, and I'd like to be exposed to some good music to influence me.

Hiya! I just thought I'd listen to your music, since me and a few friends are working on the beginning stages of a game (and by beginning, I mean we've just decided to do it, and we've just started deciding the most basic of things). Have to say, your music is interesting. Orchestral is definately a low point of yours, and I'm not trying to be offensive about that. However, some of the lighter music (I REALLY like "sunny story") is very nice. Anyways, just thought I'd let you know what I thought of it. Good luck!

Quote: Original post by Sharrky

Quote: Original post by Sean R Beeson

Quote: Original post by CGreyMusic
Thanks for both of your responses.

Nathan, I really appreciate you taking the time to give me such a comprehensive reply. That information will be invaluable to me, so thank you! I think you're right that my samples aren't exactly great. It's something I've been looking into and I'm looking at upgrading my computer and getting the Eastwest Quantum orchestra software. I'm glad you thought Bombs Away sounded mario-like as that is what the client requested :)
Again, I think you're right about my orchestral music - I have to admit that I haven't studied a great deal of classical music and so I'm having to catch up by listening more intently to classical based computer game soundtracks and movie soundtracks for the musical devices, structures and the combination of instruments used. I had wondered whether just to specialise in rock and electronic music for games, but I take it that having the versatility to be able to write orchestral music is quite an important part of the job so I will work on it. Anyway, thanks again Nathan, as I say, your advice is very much appreciated.

Lily, thanks for your encouraging words and for taking the time to reply. The mood flow was something I tried to pay particular attention to when I was composing "RPG at Sea", so I'm glad you think that it works!

Most people will say, if you want to score films, study film scores. However, games are a little different. Study the art of scoring the game, but be careful which soundtracks you study :p There are a lot of good and BAD game soundtracks. The music might fit the game well, which is the one of the ultimate goals, but when people come to your site they won't be impressed with music of that same calibur because they are listening at a desk in an office or at home, instead of in an epic boss battle.

If you wouldn't mind me asking, what kind of scores or soundtracks would you recommend listening to? I'm just getting started in composing, and I'd like to be exposed to some good music to influence me.

I was referring to all kinds of symphonic work. Listen to some of the big names: Beethoven and Mozart were both geniuses when it came to orchestration. Also listen to film scores of different styles, ballets...basically anything that is considered a master piece or has been used in very successful movies and games. Final Fantasy has some excellent music, and I'd recommend listening to some of the live recordings of that music. (I mean live as in live musicians, not MIDI)

While I agree with Sean, I think someone in your shoes would benefit from just hearing orchestral pieces done well. Listen to the classics and get used to how the different sections are used. Listen to modern scores and notice how some things stayed the same, while other things have changed.

Also, you can learn alot more from hearing bad scores...than just listening to good ones. When I hear a bad score I always listen for what is making it not work. What is happening to take away from the effect, and then ask yourself how you'd fix it. The more critical listening you do of this nature, the more you'll train your ear.

Of course, all of this is stated with the understanding that a person has to have some innate ability; natural talent for music AND for listening and composing. It also never hurts to take some music theory. If you've not had any, why not pick up an old freshman level theory book. Many of these include worksheets so you can test yourself. This will teach you volumes. When you've mastered this, move on to Soph. theory and so on. There is a TON of material to learn regarding music theory. I've taken ten different theory courses and then just about as many composition classes during both my undergraduate and graduate careers. The more you understand about the rules of writing music, the more flexibility you have...and the better you know HOW to break the rules.

Yes, there are rules for writing music...many people will say there isn't. They're mistaken, but at the same time these rules can be bent or even broken. But it has to be done the right way- otherwise it will just make one's piece sound immature and not polished.

The more you know about the systems of music, and the way an orchestra works...the better you can write in that style. This also goes for any other style. If I need to know how to write a good samba, the first thing I do is listen to a bunch of samba and play famous pieces in that style on the piano. After doing that, I have a good idea of how that style works and I can write a better piece.

This method works for me, and I think it would work well for you too.

Quote: Original post by nsmadsen

Quote: Original post by Sharrky

Quote: Original post by Sean R Beeson

Quote: Original post by CGreyMusic
Thanks for both of your responses.

Nathan, I really appreciate you taking the time to give me such a comprehensive reply. That information will be invaluable to me, so thank you! I think you're right that my samples aren't exactly great. It's something I've been looking into and I'm looking at upgrading my computer and getting the Eastwest Quantum orchestra software. I'm glad you thought Bombs Away sounded mario-like as that is what the client requested :)
Again, I think you're right about my orchestral music - I have to admit that I haven't studied a great deal of classical music and so I'm having to catch up by listening more intently to classical based computer game soundtracks and movie soundtracks for the musical devices, structures and the combination of instruments used. I had wondered whether just to specialise in rock and electronic music for games, but I take it that having the versatility to be able to write orchestral music is quite an important part of the job so I will work on it. Anyway, thanks again Nathan, as I say, your advice is very much appreciated.

Lily, thanks for your encouraging words and for taking the time to reply. The mood flow was something I tried to pay particular attention to when I was composing "RPG at Sea", so I'm glad you think that it works!

Most people will say, if you want to score films, study film scores. However, games are a little different. Study the art of scoring the game, but be careful which soundtracks you study :p There are a lot of good and BAD game soundtracks. The music might fit the game well, which is the one of the ultimate goals, but when people come to your site they won't be impressed with music of that same calibur because they are listening at a desk in an office or at home, instead of in an epic boss battle.

If you wouldn't mind me asking, what kind of scores or soundtracks would you recommend listening to? I'm just getting started in composing, and I'd like to be exposed to some good music to influence me.

I was referring to all kinds of symphonic work. Listen to some of the big names: Beethoven and Mozart were both geniuses when it came to orchestration. Also listen to film scores of different styles, ballets...basically anything that is considered a master piece or has been used in very successful movies and games. Final Fantasy has some excellent music, and I'd recommend listening to some of the live recordings of that music. (I mean live as in live musicians, not MIDI)

While I agree with Sean, I think someone in your shoes would benefit from just hearing orchestral pieces done well. Listen to the classics and get used to how the different sections are used. Listen to modern scores and notice how some things stayed the same, while other things have changed.

Also, you can learn alot more from hearing bad scores...than just listening to good ones. When I hear a bad score I always listen for what is making it not work. What is happening to take away from the effect, and then ask yourself how you'd fix it. The more critical listening you do of this nature, the more you'll train your ear.

Of course, all of this is stated with the understanding that a person has to have some innate ability; natural talent for music AND for listening and composing. It also never hurts to take some music theory. If you've not had any, why not pick up an old freshman level theory book. Many of these include worksheets so you can test yourself. This will teach you volumes. When you've mastered this, move on to Soph. theory and so on. There is a TON of material to learn regarding music theory. I've taken ten different theory courses and then just about as many composition classes during both my undergraduate and graduate careers. The more you understand about the rules of writing music, the more flexibility you have...and the better you know HOW to break the rules.

Yes, there are rules for writing music...many people will say there isn't. They're mistaken, but at the same time these rules can be bent or even broken. But it has to be done the right way- otherwise it will just make one's piece sound immature and not polished.

The more you know about the systems of music, and the way an orchestra works...the better you can write in that style. This also goes for any other style. If I need to know how to write a good samba, the first thing I do is listen to a bunch of samba and play famous pieces in that style on the piano. After doing that, I have a good idea of how that style works and I can write a better piece.

This method works for me, and I think it would work well for you too.

Oh yeah. By all means. I didn't mean to dismiss "bad scores". Just study all that you can.

Quote: Original post by nsmadsen

Quote: Original post by Sharrky

Quote: Original post by Sean R Beeson

Quote: Original post by CGreyMusic
Thanks for both of your responses.

Nathan, I really appreciate you taking the time to give me such a comprehensive reply. That information will be invaluable to me, so thank you! I think you're right that my samples aren't exactly great. It's something I've been looking into and I'm looking at upgrading my computer and getting the Eastwest Quantum orchestra software. I'm glad you thought Bombs Away sounded mario-like as that is what the client requested :)
Again, I think you're right about my orchestral music - I have to admit that I haven't studied a great deal of classical music and so I'm having to catch up by listening more intently to classical based computer game soundtracks and movie soundtracks for the musical devices, structures and the combination of instruments used. I had wondered whether just to specialise in rock and electronic music for games, but I take it that having the versatility to be able to write orchestral music is quite an important part of the job so I will work on it. Anyway, thanks again Nathan, as I say, your advice is very much appreciated.

Lily, thanks for your encouraging words and for taking the time to reply. The mood flow was something I tried to pay particular attention to when I was composing "RPG at Sea", so I'm glad you think that it works!

Most people will say, if you want to score films, study film scores. However, games are a little different. Study the art of scoring the game, but be careful which soundtracks you study :p There are a lot of good and BAD game soundtracks. The music might fit the game well, which is the one of the ultimate goals, but when people come to your site they won't be impressed with music of that same calibur because they are listening at a desk in an office or at home, instead of in an epic boss battle.

If you wouldn't mind me asking, what kind of scores or soundtracks would you recommend listening to? I'm just getting started in composing, and I'd like to be exposed to some good music to influence me.

I was referring to all kinds of symphonic work. Listen to some of the big names: Beethoven and Mozart were both geniuses when it came to orchestration. Also listen to film scores of different styles, ballets...basically anything that is considered a master piece or has been used in very successful movies and games. Final Fantasy has some excellent music, and I'd recommend listening to some of the live recordings of that music. (I mean live as in live musicians, not MIDI)

While I agree with Sean, I think someone in your shoes would benefit from just hearing orchestral pieces done well. Listen to the classics and get used to how the different sections are used. Listen to modern scores and notice how some things stayed the same, while other things have changed.

Also, you can learn alot more from hearing bad scores...than just listening to good ones. When I hear a bad score I always listen for what is making it not work. What is happening to take away from the effect, and then ask yourself how you'd fix it. The more critical listening you do of this nature, the more you'll train your ear.

Of course, all of this is stated with the understanding that a person has to have some innate ability; natural talent for music AND for listening and composing. It also never hurts to take some music theory. If you've not had any, why not pick up an old freshman level theory book. Many of these include worksheets so you can test yourself. This will teach you volumes. When you've mastered this, move on to Soph. theory and so on. There is a TON of material to learn regarding music theory. I've taken ten different theory courses and then just about as many composition classes during both my undergraduate and graduate careers. The more you understand about the rules of writing music, the more flexibility you have...and the better you know HOW to break the rules.

Yes, there are rules for writing music...many people will say there isn't. They're mistaken, but at the same time these rules can be bent or even broken. But it has to be done the right way- otherwise it will just make one's piece sound immature and not polished.

The more you know about the systems of music, and the way an orchestra works...the better you can write in that style. This also goes for any other style. If I need to know how to write a good samba, the first thing I do is listen to a bunch of samba and play famous pieces in that style on the piano. After doing that, I have a good idea of how that style works and I can write a better piece.

This method works for me, and I think it would work well for you too.

Thanks for the good reply, Nathan. Yeah, I've been listening to a lot of Beethoven and Bach lately. And also some of Chopin piano pieces and Holst's Planets Suite. They've been helping me a lot. Final Fantasy has always been a personal favorite of mine; Uematsu Nobuo is amazing.

Oh, and sorry for getting slightly off-topic. =P Chris, I also enjoyed many of your samples on your site. I think my favorite was your jazz piece.