There have been a couple threads about MMO recently and it got me thinking about Shadowrun and MMO. And I started wondering would a MMO without the Hack and Slash work? Hear me out before you launch into discussion on how Second Life is your favourite game ever. What I was thinking is a game without levels, classes, and where killing enemies doesn’t provide any form of character advancement. Instead character advancement comes down to money, hunter points, and involvement in the game world. When a player creates a character they get a number of background points how they spend those points determines how much money they start with, what gear they have, how many skill points, how many stat points they have, and if they have any unique abilities. If they want to they can start with some of the best equipment in the game however that would be at the cost of being weak in other areas. There would be many ways to earn money in the game with missions being one of the main ways. Doing missions would also be the only way to gain hunter points. Hunter points can be used to improve stats and skills, and unlock certain bonuses. However you can also increase stats and skills by spending money on genetic modifications or cybernetics. Doing missions for certain in game organizations would also increase you ranking within those organizations giving you access to other advantages. For example the experimental hand held laser gun the XL-Rifle is only sold by I-Tech to hunters ranked 5 or above with them. Players would also have to pay for cost of living. At then end of every week players have to pay an amount based on the quality of their characters lifestyle. If they want to live in that penthouse apartment overlooking the lake they can as long as they can afford the $100,000 week it costs to live there. Players can create their own missions for other players to perform. Start their own organization, build goods to be sold to other players, sell and trade contacts, etc.. Missions would very widely but could involve fast talking, bribes, killing enemies, hacking security system, stealth and infiltration. So what about it? Would removing the hack and slash, grind, levels, and dungeons make the game appeal more or less to the MMORPG fans?

Sounds a LOT like Eve-online, but with 'hunter points' (and these are different from hack and slash quest grind how?) and without the space ships.

Which is a good thing, as Eve-Online is a great game.

I'm all for greater variety of non-combat activities in MMORPGs. So to answer your question...yes it would appeal to me. But as long as there is a form of progressive power improvement most players will want to maximize their effeciency of progress and keep up with other players who are doing the same. If the points are given a different name and come from a non-combat activity, they still represent the currency of advancement. So I will do that activity over and over again to advance my character. If you have skills and stats that generally improve over time then you have a "level"; it's just not displayed as a seperate number. Players could even come up with some formula on their own for comparing with each other.

What do you consider a form of progressive power improvement?

I was thinking that all stats and skill would have a rating between 0 and 10. With no real progressive power improvement. Where you can start with pretty much all your stats at a rank of 6.

Non-mission activities can never gain you hunter points but can be used to increase your cash and power.

Seeing who is the best hacker could be done by players by comparing the number of hacking missions they have done. But even if you have done loads of high level missions doesn't mean you can't be taken down by a relativly new player.

Quote:

So what about it? Would removing the hack and slash, grind, levels, and dungeons make the game appeal more or less to the MMORPG fans?

That's up to the fans to decide.

Personally, the only reason I play any MMORPG is to be immersed into an alternate world with fun gameplay mechanics. I don't mind the grind of leveling so long as I am having fun and experience interesting events along the way. The graphics don't even need to be all that mind-blowing, just as long as I'm having fun.

In some MMORPGs, fans will say "play it for a month, by then you'll love it"...this is unacceptable. I want to play it for 10 minutes and immediately become hooked. Otherwise it isn't worth my time.

What you describe sounds like an MMORPG with all of the fun removed from it.

Where's the fun in seeking out a mob and killing it if you're not going to be rewarded for it? From a strategic standpoint, there's no reason for me to engage the enemy unless I'm going to be rewarded (experience, or item drops).

The grind isn't there to make the game boring, it's there to make it challenging. Paying $10,000 a week for your in-game condo is a form of 'grind', except that this sounds like a major bore! I've got too much upkeep in my real life to be worrying about my in-game rent :P

Without levels, you effectively turn an MMORPG into more of a strategy game. The problem with this is that there would be no balance in the game. Hardcore players would always dominate the more casual players.

The dungeon concept is key to any game where there is PvE (even in non-RPGs). In an MMORPG, dungeons are really the 'levels' (as in maps) of the game, where the outside game world is everything that leads up to the dungeon. If you remove the dungeons, I can almost guarantee they will pop-up again in some form or another.

Quote:

Original post by Talroth Sounds a LOT like Eve-online, but with 'hunter points' (and these are different from hack and slash quest grind how?) and without the space ships. Which is a good thing, as Eve-Online is a great game.

Not sure what you mean by the quest grind. Can you elborate? Do you mean that you have to a lot of quests to get any where, or that the quests themselves are boring.

Some goods replays so far. It good to see what the MMORPG fans think is right and wrong with the ideas.

Quote:

Original post by swordfish Where's the fun in seeking out a mob and killing it if you're not going to be rewarded for it? From a strategic standpoint, there's no reason for me to engage the enemy unless I'm going to be rewarded (experience, or item drops).

The is exactly the point I'm suggesting be removed, no wandering mobs, no going out and killing mobs because there is no longer a reason to. You can either involve yourself in other pursuits or go on missions. You might under take a mission to steal some files from a corporate office. To succeed you'll have to gain entry, find the files, and overcome a variety of obstacles. The challenges might be employees, guards, security systems, locked doors, or computer systems to name a few. How you achive the mission is up to you burst in guns blazing and kill everyone who moves, pose as a cleaner and fast talk your way through, or use your hacking skills and hack in and steal the file from the comfort of your own living room. The choice is yours and the reward is the same any way your do it. Killing the guards provides no added bonus.

Quote:

The grind isn't there to make the game boring, it's there to make it challenging. Paying $10,000 a week for your in-game condo is a form of 'grind', except that this sounds like a major bore! I've got too much upkeep in my real life to be worrying about my in-game rent :P

How so? I've always found the grind a pointless waste of time. Spend a couple of hours walking back and forth across the same area killing the same monsters is tedious as hell. I'd much just skip it and get on with the game.

Quote:

Without levels, you effectively turn an MMORPG into more of a strategy game. The problem with this is that there would be no balance in the game. Hardcore players would always dominate the more casual players.

Why is adding more strategy a bad thing? Hardcore players already dominate these game over casual players. If someone started 6 months ahead of you then you can never surpass them unless you become even more hardcore player then they are. Without levels you reward casual players by letting them compete with hardcore players. You surpass a hardcore player by playing smarter not longer. You don't need to invest long periods of time to become and elite player you could become very quickly if your skilled player, rather then one with to much time on their hands.

Quote:

The dungeon concept is key to any game where there is PvE (even in non-RPGs). In an MMORPG, dungeons are really the 'levels' (as in maps) of the game, where the outside game world is everything that leads up to the dungeon. If you remove the dungeons, I can almost guarantee they will pop-up again in some form or another.

Does that mean if the Game has only a small focus on PvE then it doesn't need dungeons? What about building fincial empire? Does Hiring players to attack assests of rival NPC controlled companies, having players stealing goods, and then using your wealth to expend the number of business you controll still count as PvE? If so where is the dungeon?

Quote:

Doing missions would also be the only way to gain hunter points. Hunter points can be used to improve stats and skills, and unlock certain bonuses.

So, Hunter Points are used to improve stats and skills and unlock certain bonuses.

This is then somehow different from going out into the forest, killing 50 giant rats for experience points, and then levelling up? (In other words, I'm looking for more in depth explanations on why this is a good thing people should care about.)

It just sounds like re-branding something as something new, and calling it better. Skim milk with more skim anyone? Will catch a lot of people thinking it is something new and different, but we still have to question just how different it is.

Which is something we don't discuss enough on the design forum. People complain about how something sucks, and how it should be different, without getting down to the core of why it sucks, and the core of what makes something better.


Quests don't have to be boring, and we don't need quests at all. Look at games like Eve Online, sure there are Quests, but if you are still playing with the quests, you aren't playing the whole game yet. They ease you into the gritty world of the player vs player game it is.

Problems with a game design that revolves around Quests is that it requires a lot of developer input and time. They have to design the quest, test it, and then the players come along, a few minutes after seeing the quest, they finish it, then turn to the devs and ask for more. Should the developers use a self generating quest system, they are usually made up of small cookie cutter style ones that lack a view of the 'big picture'. Such cookie cutter quests are quickly seen through by the players, and become stale with very little new happening in it. We had a discussion about quest generation a few months ago and talked about how to get away from such a simple system, and generate larger, more complex quests, but these still require a lot of work from the devs, and can potentially blow up in their face. Not to mention the processing power required for them.

What other options do we have? The players make their own 'quests'. Give the player a world and a means to interact with it. Some way to earn money: Mine, build things, trade, rob, gun for hire. Whatever works well and can be part of a stable economy. Give them some way to advance their character, buy or build new things for themselves, or gain new skill over time, or by killing other players or player like AI NPCs.

Basically, look to non RPG games for ideas. Counter Strike doesn't have have skill points, you can enter a game and (ignoring player skill and reaction time for actually shooting) become the equal to the best guy on the server after one round. You buy yourself your vest and helmet, and you pickup a dropped weapon. No quests, no killing the 10 rats in farmer Joe's barn and being thanked for saving his bar,... then coming back to him 30 seconds later and have him bitch about the rats in his bar to you and offer you a sack of gold if you go kill them.


How about Sims Online? Build your house, and maybe a store of some sort. Let the players design custom clothes (with a few minimum requirements on where fabric is, and what colours they are) or items. Have a very community based game with no killing involved.


I personally lean toward political-economic warfare games. Can't out talk or out trade someone as your plan A? Drop a thermal nuclear warhead down his tailpipe as plan B.