*thread title was Mmorpg theory : innovation > present, sorry for that* Hello all, first post, and I will try to write it in proper english as far as my knowledge of this language will permit me to, so sorry if some parts are not as precise as you may want. To introduce myself quickly, I'm a 21 years old student from Canada and, hopefully, I will be accepted in Game Design this year *crosses fingers*. As a first post, I'd like to talk to you about the "cool" genre of the moment in gaming, yes you guessed right - massively multiplayer online role playing games, known as MMORPGs. With the success of titles like World of Warcraft, Everquest I-II, Guild Wars, Eve Online among many others that try to drain their popularity (clones), one can easily tell there is already a saturation of the market with MMORPGs, but not the one you may think about. The problem is, in my opinion, the lack of innovation into the genre. Only two themes seem to be rampant ; fantasy and science-fiction. The players either have the choice to be knights, orcs, shamans, warriors or, on the opposite, cyborgs, robots, and the like. You fight with swords or plasma rifles against dragons or machines. But, isn't the goal of a MMORPG related to creating communities? Why is it so focused on either fantasy or science-fiction? I think game developers are starting to understand that the market - the players - would welcome with open arms a new MMORPG that does not fit in any other category (read : two or three). I for one am tired of the same generic crap that hits the market one after the other . For the curious who did not follow the news, it is SOE who is willing to change the way we look at MMORPGs with an annoucement at the D.I.C.E. Summit in Las Vegas ; they are working on a spy-themed MMORPG ; "It's not really just an espionage game. It's a combination of espionage... Think 24 meets Alias meets Counterstrike." said John Smedley. But my thread is not about giving Sony credits. Rather, I'd like to throw in some theories and concepts of what MMORPGs could be like in the future, and how could they be 1) better and especially 2) more fun / less generic. Here we go. A) Drop the fantasy / sci-fi. Though games are not movies, game developers should know better than to have an obession with those two genres. Imagine if movies could only be indexed in two categories. Be CREATIVE and STOP the effin' CLONES. I know that people try to "steal" the sucess of a concept, but it is ridiculous - same happens with GTA and many other series / genres. B) New ways to play. Why not create a MMORPG where, instead of defeating monsters to level up, you have to find hidden treasures on the world map, collect them and turn them for experience points (XP) and weapons? It may not be the most clever design ever, but is sure is a change of defeat X mobs to gain a level. Repeat. Defeat Y big mob and get Z elite loot. That's boring after 10 minutes. But it works, since players do not have anything else to give a shot to. What about a game where you don't get to level up, but have to gather friends to solve complex puzzles in elaborate dungeons? The possibilities are endless, not all could work, but trying is how we change things. C) Drop the conventions. Even if that is a similar point as in A and B, make sure players will be amazed everytime they find a new level/part of the world. Don't create a world so we know there will be a fire part, an icy part, mountains, rivers and islands. Create something crazy yet enjoyable. By example, you could create underground tunnels that lead into the sky, or a factory that is in fact a moving monster. These ideas, as those I mentionned earlier, are simply EXAMPLES of creativity. They could work if they are bring together well. Dropping conventions also mean don't give me a sword ever again to fight a dragon. How could it would be to face the same dragon, but with a rocket launcher? Phantasy Star Online/Universe does, it's good too, but underneath a pile of crap I won't even begin to talk about (I'm so mad about Universe). Give us hockey sticks to fight jelly monsters, baseball bat to fight giant Freezer-like monsters. Oh and by the way, don't give me a plate if the ennemy is a rat. D) The combat, seriously. MMORPGS all look the same. Your guy is in front of the mob, hits, cooldown, hits again, repeat while being hit. First, it's one of the worst convention I ever saw in gaming. Like someone else said in a MMORPG thread, if you are hit by a 2 meters sword, you won't stay on your feet like nothing happened. Make us MOVE around our target, make it dodge, add ANIMATIONS for god sake. Oh, and I hate how every ennemy dies the same way in most games. E) Shrink it. MMORPGS are made so one player feels lost, a grain of sand on a beach. But is it really working? Yes, I think so. The question is, is it really worth it? When it takes 10-30 minutes to go to a dungeon because you don't have a mount you will only get in 50 levels, it's no fun at all. Yes the world is big, but not practical. Create a smaller world with more details, cool but not over-the-top graphics where you will have intelligent ennemies, clever bosses, challenges and the like. I'd prefer 100x World of Warcraft with half the world and twice the possibilities. It's all about crafting something complex, fun and creative. How many times will I write it...BE CREATIVE. There are many more ways to create betters MMORPGS, but I won't list them all because I'll still be writing for hours. My thread is not really about bashing current games that fall into this genre, but rather give some concepts of what the MMORPG of tomorrow could be like. Ideas are limitless, only game developers are (talent, funds, etc.) By writing clever concepts, we can help the players get better products that are even more enjoyable than your Generic Title 1 wannabee. Introduce us to your concepts, be them simple or really intriguing. And I will say it again, I'd prefer X game company to release a paparazzi MMORPG where you have to take pictures of other players and upgrade your camera and stuff while not being caught by other players (cops) than seeing another OMG OUR GAME IS SO EXCITING THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF THE SAME BULLSHIT XYZ GAME DID BEFORE BUT WE DID IT ANOTHER WAY THAT WILL BLOW YOU AWAY BECAUSE WE USED ANOTHER GRAPHIC ENGINE AND OUR OWN PHYSICS ENGINE WITH TWO RACES YOU NEVER HEARD OF FOR ONLY 15$ US PER MONTH IT'S UNBELIEVABLE! Sorry, I had enough, especially as someone who tries to get into the industry and likes to write stories. Show us what you got in your imagination directory, game devs. Or wait 'till I am one. Kidding ;)

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Drop the fantasy / sci-fi.

Say what?!

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...instead of defeating monsters to level up, you ...

Huh?

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Shrink it.

OH HELL NO!

Sorry, but I can't read anymore of this. Sure, variety is good, but you're trying to kill all that is good about the genre.

I don't particularly think the themes are the problem, so much as the cloning of gameplay across all the various iterations of MMO's. I don't foresee the general gaming populous (especially the MMO market, which has just gained some 6 million new members in the last two years) completely giving up on MMO's if they continue to use fantasy and sci-fi as settings. What will make the games stand out, feel fresh, and retain players is innovative gamePLAY.

The themes of fantasy and sci-fi themselves are timeless. They're the setting for countless novels that continue to sell just fine. I'm a fantasy book junkie, I don't tire of the setting, because the storytelling done within is executed well. In fact, I'd encourage a great storyteller to work on a fantasy and/or sci-fi -themed MMO, as they could create an enticing, breathing world where so many developers have fashioned stale sandboxes. I think regardless of your theme, if you really sell it to the player and create a world instead of a backdrop, you won't hear anyone complaining that they've already played 12 games that had swords, sorcery, and dragons. They'll be interested in playing in this new world.

What we're seeing in the MMO genre is a slow evolution. If game x had 3 great features and 5 crap ones, game y comes along and retains the 3 good features from x, and tries out 2 new elements. One turns out to be amazing and really strengthens the game's fun-factor, so that becomes the 4th "must-have" in the MMO genre. So when game z's dev team gets together, they say "well, we need the 3 elements from x that y adopted, plus the new element y introduced, now let's add what we think will work and see what happens."

A radically different MMO is probably going to appeal to a niche market, but won't impact the gaming population at large. And being different for it's own sake isn't necessarily a good thing. If you think up a great gameplay mechanic, and it hasn't been done before, you get major bonus points. But thinking up something that's never been done before and then hoping it makes for a good game is an unhealthy plan for your wallet. Sure, you'll get the "I haven't played anything like it before" response, but (radical example) if I designed a car that had 7 wheels, no doors, and no front windshield, it'd be new to the car world, but no one would pay money for it.

I agree, since Everquest all MMORPG have the same concept/deign. same toolbar buttons at the same place, same crappy quest-log, same crappy power-gaming feeling making you go alone kill stuff and not caring about other players. Ultima Online was a bit different but it was the first and got forgotten (was still power-gaming, but with skill attribution better than oblivion, tactical real-time combats and clan wars, not only getting skills).

I would love to play a good MMORPG, but there aren't any who attracted me since then and no way I would play a WoW clone, those suck bad.

Auto-Assault was different, but it didn't work very well.

I have to agree too that you shouldn't shrink the world, nor drop Sci-Fi and Fantasy, those genre work great, but yeah a modern genre would be great too.

I think you are ignoring the fact that playing an MMO is not only about becoming part of a community, but also about starting a life in a different world. And different worlds can basically be divided into two classes: those that are based on the past are fantasy, and those that are based on the future are science fiction. Exactly what alternatives do you think there are? There are a few MMOs based on the present (Sims Online, Second Life) but generally people aren't interested in a pretend world that doesn't give then anything they can't get in real life. Similarly, conventions are important to suspension of disbelief and immersion in that different world - it's hard to take the world seriously if it is inconsistent and illogical as tunnels leading to the sky and rocket launchers vs. dragons are. What _would_ be nice to see are more unique, original, deep, self-consistent and logical science fiction and fantasy worlds with actual cultures and alien biologies.

You're also not giving enough credit to the existing variety of MMOs - have you tried playing something like A Tale in the Desert? That game has some problems, but it's certainly unique - try the free 24 hour trial and expand your mind.

And who exactly are you complaining at? Most of the members of this forum are indie designers - only a small percentage of us are involved with MMOs at all, and among those there is a huge variety of visions for what kind of an MMO to make. Me personally, I would like to make a 2D combat-optional MMO with a lot of farming/crafting sim elements, dating sim elements such as building relationships with NPCs, adventure game style puzzles, an interactive story focused on each avatar instead of on global events, and 18+ areas of the game where adult roleplay is encouraged. There are plenty of people here trying to do creative things. The problem is finding other people who have the same vision, and finding sources of funding to support that vision.

[Edited by - sunandshadow on February 21, 2007 3:55:17 PM]

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Original post by Kudgel ... Eve Online ... But, isn't the goal of a MMORPG related to creating communities? ... ... Be CREATIVE and STOP the effin' CLONES. ... ...New ways to play. Why not create a MMORPG where, instead of defeating monsters to level up, ...

Have you played Eve Online?

*Edit* Guess I should explain: I'm sure Eve Online is like other games, but I haven't seen many like it, not nearly as many hack and slash games.

If you aren't part of a strong community that works well together, then you aren't playing Eve Online, you are still learning the basics of the game.

Also, it doesn't matter if you kill a billion enemies, or never leave the space port, if you have the money to buy your skills that you then train, all you need is time. You don't even have to be logged in to gain them, you are more likely to be off line while gaining skills, seeing as most take a week or more (I think the longest a skill can take is something like 3 months to train), and thats real time.

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Create something crazy yet enjoyable. By example, you could create underground tunnels that lead into the sky, or a factory that is in fact a moving monster. These ideas, as those I mentionned earlier, are simply EXAMPLES of creativity. They could work if they are bring together well. Dropping conventions also mean don't give me a sword ever again to fight a dragon. How could it would be to face the same dragon, but with a rocket launcher?

Right, this is more 'creative' than other things? You really risk your idea being viewed as "Wow, this makes no sense, what is going on", and also, how do you plan to MAKE all that? You'll leave your players wondering what you were smoking, and also bitching about how they start out with a little butter knife, and work hard to get their short sword, while the older players are running around in their Mechs with quad anti-matter missile launchers.

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D) The combat, seriously. MMORPGS all look the same. Your guy is in front of the mob, hits, cooldown, hits again, repeat while being hit. First, it's one of the worst convention I ever saw in gaming. Like someone else said in a MMORPG thread, if you are hit by a 2 meters sword, you won't stay on your feet like nothing happened. Make us MOVE around our target, make it dodge, add ANIMATIONS for god sake. Oh, and I hate how every ennemy dies the same way in most games.

Well, first off you can start with simply doing things like,... I don't know,... NOT having people running around with 2 meter long swords?

As for the moving part, that adds a fair bit to server over head. Games like EVE Online get away with more movements because they can fudge their numbers a little. If a ship is actually 2003m away, at 29 by 43 degrees from you, you won't really notice if the model is drawn at 2010m, and 30 by 40 degrees from you. If you fudge the numbers in a land based, hand to hand game, and you are sitting there, 2 meters from your target and still swinging your 0.6m long sword and landing blows, it is going to look bad.

As for how 'every enemy dies the same way',... How much do you plan to pay your art department?



And as far as size, why not try and find a way to make all that traveling fun? Get rid of the idea of: Go Out, Raid, Return to town to sell loot and buy new stuff, Repeat.

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Original post by sunandshadow And different worlds can basically be divided into two classes: those that are based on the past are fantasy, and those that are based on the future are science fiction. Exactly what alternatives do you think there are?

Oh come on, all the current fantasy MMOs are basically the same generic Tolken/D&D fantasy world with medieval buildings and races of human/elf/dwarf/etc. etc. Just because it's set in the past doesn't lock you down to this narrow genre. You could go for Roman/Greek era complete with matching gods and godesses, steampunk, industrial era, victorian era, early scandinavian tribal (complete with norse gods and mythology), aztec/inca tribal with jungle settings, etc. Thats a whole range of workable past settings which would be wildly different from all of the existing fantasy MMOs.

I was going to address each of your points. But I decided instead to just summarize.

It is apparent that your experience is limited to only playing a couple of MMOs. You have never worked on an MMO, and you don't know any of the developers and what their goals and ideas for future MMOs might be. You don't understand the development process or the business environment.

You need to play many more MMOs -- especially the ones that don't have a sci fi or fantasy theme -- in order to gain some perspective. You need learn more about the development process and the business of making games in order to learn about the limitations. You need to learn about what other people like in games and why they play them. Once you have a better understanding of why the games are the way they are, you will be able to figure out how to overcome the all problems and make a game that everyone will want to play.

I'm not a player or care very much for MMORPGs myself (well, except in a kind of anthropological way; studying why so many people are fascinated by them [smile]), so I can't offer much informed advice on their shortcomings.

However I'd like to point out there is a big advantage for choosing fantasy or sci-fi for an RPG setting; with magic or super-high-tech that acts like magic you can easily shape the game world to provide whatever you want. Want to teleport people across the world in an instant? Magic. Want to explain why people can take several sword hits without dying? Magic. What to have a giant floating fortress in the sky? Magic again. And so on...

You can also ensure that the world is balanced by tweaking the numbers and game elements if you completely define the world. It is easy to balance orcs verses elves if you can define their species parameters and what skills they have. However, if you were to base your RPG on Spaniards verses Aztecs in the time of Cortez, it's hard to balance that in a viable way.

Now I think there's an argument against too much Tolkein inspired fantasy in RPGs, and by extension MMORPGs, but fantasy itself is a very broad domain with useful parameters for computer games.

i think there is cloning effect by the big market companies cause they see that it works, and want their share of the pie.

you have some good points though, so i'll throw in my ideas and see if anyone takes:

first off get rid of traditional class structure of knights and wizards and introduce some obscure jobs like cook or rockstar (as branches to other jobs like chef or dark metal lord) and allow them to equip obscure weapons from guitars to kitchen cutlery ...

sunandshadow mentioned some stuff that wasn't traditional in a hack 'n slash mmo. i'd like to see something like a more interactive combo system (introduced in chrono trigger) where player A (mage) throws a fireball at enemy B which hits enemy passing through to player C who strikes the fireball with his sword and does some kind of fire slash ... but what if player A and C have never introduced themselves to eachother or aren't even friends (one has defamed the other for one reason or another) then this combo would go horribly wrong where player C also gets struck by the fireball, and taking damage takes it out on A ...

just a few of the brilliant ideas that lurk in my head.