Just looking for general info regarding the process of game design under a pre-existing IP. I've been working over the concept of a Shadowrun MMO-ish title with a small group of artists and coders, and the more we collaborate on "this would be possible, this feature would have to be simplified, this is how we make it work for 6 people at a time, etc" we're starting to feel like we actually have something workable. The problem comes as such: while currently in an obsessive hobby phase, if we wanted to turn this into a real project, Microsoft owns the software IP rights to Shadowrun. Does anyone here think it's at all feasible to continue with this, to a possible end of requesting to develop under M$ after presenting a well-defined design doc and demo software? I realize it would be nigh impossible to request that we get permission to work on this solo, especially seeing that a megalomaniacal industry magnate holds the property rights. Their current iteration of a Shadowrun game is laughable considering the material they had at their fingertips. Elven headshots for the win... Thoughts?

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Thoughts?

That you have a particular dislike for Microsoft?

My estimation is that you're pretty unlikely to get access to the actual Shadowrun rights. Why not just make a Shadowrun-ish game?

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That you have a particular dislike for Microsoft?

It's not so much a particular dislike for Microsoft itself, it's a) a dislike for the direction they took a concept-rich RPG IP, and b) a healthy fear of an industry giant by a small startup. Combined with dismal prospects on access to the rights.

Regardless, not entirely the focus of my question, but this is the internet, so I can't say that was unexpected.

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Why not just make a Shadowrun-ish game?

Ok, more what I was hoping for. This is a really big grey-area problem, namely because the small team is all people passionate about bringing the FASA-created universe to digital life. A true (good) cyberpunk massive online experience, with teams of runners performing jobs in instanced buildings and using their skills outside of missions to find more work, establish unique identities among the playerbase, and socialize like any other MMO.

If we're unable to get the rights to FASA's IP, and unable to be published under the current owner of said IP, then how close can we encroach on that property without being sued, and how far away can we realistically go design-wise before everything that had us passionate about the project has been removed? I hardly think that producing an MMO with trolls, elves, magic, deckers, wireless PANs, and calling itself original will survive longer than 10 seconds before being shut down.

Not to mention a large part of the draw to making this was the same thing SWG was built on: the chance to play in a virtual world based off a pre-existing IP that plenty of people would love to see brought to life.

I suppose with IP this content-rich, it's hard to pay homage without copying. At any rate, "-ish" is something we could take and mull over, I just worry at this point it'd reek of an attempt to be Shadowrun without being sued.

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Original post by BCullis I hardly think that producing an MMO with trolls, elves, magic, deckers, wireless PANs, and calling itself original will survive longer than 10 seconds before being shut down.

Why?

Microsoft absolutely does NOT own the concept of elves,trolls,magic,deckers,runs,and use of the word 'frag'. It also does not own any combination of these ideas.

No one can own an idea. You can make a game with all of this in it and will have absolutely no problems. You simply cannot name it 'Shadowrun' or use any other copyrighted material. I'm working on a Shadowrun style MMORPG myself [grin].

NOTE: IANAL

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No one can own an idea.

Well, partly true from what I've researched so far. The whole concept of Intellectual Property means that they do own certain combinations: I don't think I could draw out a North America map with borders along the same zones that FASA designed, have Denver be a neutral trade hub, and start a troll street-shaman out there with a quest to kill 2 Lonestar officers and get away with it by changing "Lonestar" to some new security outfit. I believe that would still be considered copyright infringement.

Another example:

I just got back from watching Star Wars, let's say. I want to write my own movie where the main character has been raised by foster parents, trains with a hermit on how to use some magical universal power called "the gift", constructs a sword made out of some laser energy, confronts the big bad guy who wears a big black suit and helmet, turns out to be his father, and also wields a laser sword and uses "the gift." He has two robots he bought off some traveling midget vendors, one speaks impeccable english and the other just beeps a lot.

Would this work? No, I have a feeling George Lucas would have some lawyers plant a boot in my...wallet. He doesn't own the concept of robots, laser swords, fathers, some universal magic energy, etc.; but he does own the concept of them all being used together.

Regardless, just changing the name wouldn't make everything Kosher. At least from my understanding.

IANAL.

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Original post by graveyard filla No one can own an idea.

Actually, ideas are precisely what patents protect.

You are correct however in that in general gameplay isn't protected. You can't for example create a game called "Tetris" or even containing the syllable "tris" (given that it's a falling block game) because the name is protected by Trademark, and you can't use the original graphics or audio because they're protected by copyright. Interestingly enough, you could use your own version of the same music in a different game because it's actually a very old piece of music that's now in the public domain, but if you used your own version of the same music on a 'falling block game' you'd probably be in trouble because it's part of the 'trade dress' of Tetris. You can however make your own 'falling block game' with the same gameplay as Tetris given that you don't violate any of that other IP.


So, in answer to the OP's question you can make a similar game, but you can't use any of the IP from the original. That means you need your own distinct title, your own characters, your own storyline, and of course your own graphics/sounds/etc.

Well, My advice would be this.

Develop the game using the Shadowrun IP but design it with the ability in place to remove it all should you need to. If you get to the point where the game is good enough to publish approach microsoft with the game and pitch it to them like you would any other publisher. If they turn you down just cut out all the Shadowrun IP and try a different publisher.

In the end if your a product is good enough to make money microsoft isn't likly to turn down the chance to publish it considering they are going to be taking the bulk of the profits anyway and they don't have to pay any development costs. And if it never gets to that stage then you haven't lost anything for building the game the way you really want to.

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Original post by BCullis Does anyone here think it's at all feasible to continue with this, to a possible end of requesting to develop under M$ after presenting a well-defined design doc and demo software?

Not feasible unless you have years of proven game development experience. Microsoft don't work with start ups (unless the founders come from some other big successful developer). Mate of mine worked for them and he summed it up thus "we only work with companies we have already heard of".

Thanks for the replies all (especially your mate's insight, Obscure).

After a hefty discussion and the points given here, we're probably going to try and redesign the gameworld around cyberpunk MMO team-based playstyle, meaning ditching FASA's world and conforming story to gameplay, instead of gameplay to pre-existing storyline. This'll also save us the headache of trying to adapt Shadowrun's lesser-feasible elements into PC gameplay, and skirt the whole IP issue.

I do have one semi-tangential question, in case anyone has the resource. Is there some publicly accessible IP documentation we can compare against, or is the nature of IP rights gray enough that it's up to the individual laywer whether or not it's safe to use x concept in y genre?

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Original post by BCullis After a hefty discussion and the points given here, we're probably going to try and redesign the gameworld around cyberpunk MMO team-based playstyle, meaning ditching FASA's world and conforming story to gameplay, instead of gameplay to pre-existing storyline. This'll also save us the headache of trying to adapt Shadowrun's lesser-feasible elements into PC gameplay, and skirt the whole IP issue.

I think this is the best bet. Look at it this way: Disgruntled SR fans, being disappointed by MS's efforts, will be looking for something new. Being created by SR fans, this game will likely appeal to them in the same way. Thus, this game could be seen as trying to fill a niche that just grew a little wider. If this is successful, BCulli$ will probably start protecting his IP and feel the sting of his name being spelled with a dollar sign. [wink]