Time for VR chatrooms! ;> Please excuse my relatively unrestrained enthusiasm. It's my first day.</Homer> I'm curious what technology advances will be required before we'll have chatrooms that more closely resemble MMORPGs, if not full on "VR". (custom character models, motion-capture & all that jazz) We already have MMORPGs, which allow us to have 3D avatars, customized to a certain degree, able to physically emote to a certain degree. I've seen banner ads for "3D chat" software. It's pretty pathetic looking. Even less variety in appearance than a typical MMORPG. at least most MMORPGs support different faces with different facial structures to them. When will we be able to support completely personal avatars? Does anyone know details about the MMOG Second Life? It's a game that lets you make your own characters and build your own items and land. I've been really tempted to try it, but never have. I suspect - it being a pioneer of a genre - it's fairly limited. but how do they handle the ability for people to make their own avatars from scratch?? how many can you have in the area at once? do you need to download 10MB files for each character like you do in a game like Unreal Tournament? I know years ago I heard about VRML, and it sounded pretty lame. Just not sufficient to do what it was headed out to do. I don't think I've ever heard about it since. What happened with that? *Wikipedia's it* Oh. wow. peak of popularity 10 years ago. Woof. I'm old. Superceded by X3D. So how's THAT coming along? Is that what Second Life uses, or what? I'm really hoping this genre takes off. I see a LOT of potential in it, since it's so flexible. What I've been imagining lately is (relatively) "public" chatrooms (sort of like IRC. people rent inexpensive servers.) and game companies sell use of their game models as avatars, hopefully micropayments so you don't have to buy too large a chunk of their game. At most all the character classes, so as to avoid buying the entire set of object and monster models, and possibly maps. Who wouldn't pay a little extra to have their World of Warcraft character usable all over the rest of the internet? Then you could in some respect keep your character even if you got tired of playing the full subscription game. You could also combine your characters from multiple games together, without having to pay $15 a month for each of them. Of course, it would require game companies to loosen their grip on their intellectual property, and while they're not the music industry, I'm not sure any business is really big on that idea these days. While decentralized chat servers would probably more easily allow for piracy than normal, I'm hoping it would still be a good idea for them to get onboard any such technology that was taking off with or without them. The music industry is "losing money" (as they like to phrase it) by not getting onboard. I'm sure none of the game companies would ever pioneer this, (except maybe a non IP game like Second Life) but I'm hoping it gets created anyway. really, this is the minimum I want. what I really wish is that we could start blending games together. play characters from one game in the world of another. World of Warcraft, Phantasy Star Online/Universe, Ryzom (another popular MMORPG), Unreal Tournament series, Myst/Uru. I'm pretty sure game companies would never go for that. :) </unrestrained enthusiasm paragraph> Here's a question related to it though... are things like the World of Warcraft model viewer considered illegal? They don't actually effect the game in any way, but they do read the game files yet they aren't made by Blizzard. They DO allow things like seeing maps of places without actually playing the game to get there, or seeing items without getting them. Blizzard might not like that, although I suspect [it's fairly low on their list of offenses, and that not only are they not interested in pursuing it, but they are incapable of doing so since there is no way to detect it's use] (all in square brackets as it's all conjecture on my part. please correct me with any facts.) I suspect that it's impractical to design a game engine that would support multiple 3D games, even if they were limited to similar styles (IE: all MMORPGs), but I'd like to hear the opinion of anyone with experience in this. Let's say we go back to the idea of the 3D chatroom. We put in maps from the games. We throw in bits of physics and animation. How closely could you emulate some of the games? (let's say it doesn't have to be perfect) Would that be a coding nightmare to re-engineer a game using a different engine? assuming the engine had already been made, and with this in mind, or at the very least, as a 3D chatroom that supported animations and interactions. You know what's a real pain? converting 3D characters from one game to another. sometimes they fragment the model into parts (ok, maybe that's only in old games like Quake or something. I know one of them did that.) or don't include the bones with the model (how the hell can you manage that?) or the texture mapping. ARG! I wish it was standard so it was easier to inoffensively play with company intellectual property. :> Have things changed since then? Are there better standards for animated and textured 3D models? Can I get the 3D model (textures and bones and all) for the dark elf boss in Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance? (I think it was DA2. ahhh, Dark Alliance, known for it's gratuitously animated mamaries during cut-scenes. :) ) Heck, where's my Unreal Championship 2 Devastation? (hooray for robots!)

If you have several different ideas, it's really best to put them in different threads, under different titles. Few people want to open a thread under one subject and find a load of questions that don't seem very related.

chatrooms that more closely resemble MMORPGs: they exist, and have existed since before MMORPGs came along.

how does Second Life handle the ability for people to make their own avatars from scratch? : by allowing you to upload the content. It's not groundbreaking at all. It is presumably part of why their graphics are poor compared to many 3D games. Customisability vs. Performance + Visual quality + Security.

Superceded by X3D. Is that what Second Life uses? : No. It's safe to say that Web technologies have very, very little to do with gaming technology.

are things like the World of Warcraft model viewer considered illegal? : Asking whether something is legal or not opens up a large can of worms. I'm sure someone 'considers' it illegal. It's probably not though.

I suspect that it's impractical to design a game engine that would support multiple 3D games: you suspect wrongly.

Would that be a coding nightmare to re-engineer a game using a different engine? : No, but it's a waste of time as you'll just end up served with a Cease and Desist order.

Are there better standards for animated and textured 3D models? : There's little point creating a standard, because what was good 4 years ago will not be good today, and what is good today will not be good in 4 years. Also the type of game influences the way in which a model is used, so different games may have different bones and the like.

Thank you for replying.

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Original post by Kylotan If you have several different ideas, it's really best to put them in different threads, under different titles. Few people want to open a thread under one subject and find a load of questions that don't seem very related.

It's all related to the topic I typed out. although chat-room and game emulator are sort of interchangable. Ideally I'd want a chatroom that IS an online game emulator.

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how does Second Life handle the ability for people to make their own avatars from scratch? : by allowing you to upload the content. It's not groundbreaking at all. It is presumably part of why their graphics are poor compared to many 3D games. Customisability vs. Performance + Visual quality + Security.

Well, the main topic was why I brought this up. When it the technology going to support better quality of custom 3D avatarts for chatrooms? Those chatrooms you said resemble MMORPGs that have been around forever... I suppose it's bad if they too closely resemble MMORPGs, since you're often very limited in the customization of your avatar. (very limited for World of WarCraft, where you can't even stretch the body proportions, a feature common in other MMOGs)
I heard someone else inform me that Second Life streams all it's content, so perhaps it is much like an Unreal Tournament server that allows custom models, which you have to download.

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Superceded by X3D. Is that what Second Life uses? : No. It's safe to say that Web technologies have very, very little to do with gaming technology.

I guess because web is meant to be low-bandwidth (hah. in the age of YouTube. you know I download 1GB a month just from browsing the internet once a day? that's obscene.)

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I suspect that it's impractical to design a game engine that would support multiple 3D games: you suspect wrongly.

Hah. I didn't think in the context of game engines recycled for other games... but if you wanted it to be flexible enough to play just like a broad selection of MMORPGs, I imagine THAT would be impractical. The flexibility required would be too great, wouldn't it?

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Would that be a coding nightmare to re-engineer a game using a different engine? : No, but it's a waste of time as you'll just end up served with a Cease and Desist order.

Only if they specifically emulated that game. If they just made the engine and included a sample game that was only similar (as much as any MMORPG is similar to another) there wouldn't be a problem. pesky laws. really sad when they close something non-profit that's new, only because it uses their intellectual property. like the 3D Chrono Trigger and Dragon Ball Z fighting game.

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Are there better standards for animated and textured 3D models? : There's little point creating a standard, because what was good 4 years ago will not be good today, and what is good today will not be good in 4 years. Also the type of game influences the way in which a model is used, so different games may have different bones and the like.

I guess so. :S

...dont EVER PLAY SECOND LIFE I MEAN I HATE IT...good idea for uploading and streaming content but it is SOOOOO LAGGY, it also has poor graphics and yes it is limited

On the subject of 3D format standards, I haven't researched it extensively, but I hear good things about COLLADA. I guess time will tell.

here goes imvu i havent tried it and its not as big as second life but i think it has better graphics

http://www.imvu.com/

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Original post by Chaotic Descent It's all related to the topic I typed out. although chat-room and game emulator are sort of interchangable. Ideally I'd want a chatroom that IS an online game emulator.

The subject of your post didn't encompass everything in your topic. Best to make it descriptive so that people know what they're going to be reading.

What you find though, is that most people who want to game, don't want to chat, and vice versa. The 'best of both worlds' in your mind is the worst of both for others. They may not want to need a top of the range graphics card, or a high bandwidth connection, for example, but that is what you often need for the best MMO games.

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Well, the main topic was why I brought this up. When it the technology going to support better quality of custom 3D avatarts for chatrooms?

Tomorrow. Every day, things get 'better'.

On the other hand, if you have specific requirements, that's something else.

Again, remember that the average chatroom user doesn't have the same capabilities or requirements of the average gamer.

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Those chatrooms you said resemble MMORPGs that have been around forever... I suppose it's bad if they too closely resemble MMORPGs, since you're often very limited in the customization of your avatar.

Some have more, some have less.

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Quote: It's safe to say that Web technologies have very, very little to do with gaming technology. I guess because web is meant to be low-bandwidth.

It's more to do with the web being an entirely different technology... client-pull, virtually no state held on the client, requirements to fit with existing web client technology, and so on.

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Hah. I didn't think in the context of game engines recycled for other games... but if you wanted it to be flexible enough to play just like a broad selection of MMORPGs, I imagine THAT would be impractical. The flexibility required would be too great, wouldn't it?

That depends. Your question is a bit vague. Using a single client, I can already log on to thousands of online games, because they send output via a common protocol. That protocol is very primitive, but extending it is a question of resources available. Given that one game engine can make several games, why shouldn't that apply to MMORPGs too?

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Quote: Would that be a coding nightmare to re-engineer a game using a different engine? : No, but it's a waste of time as you'll just end up served with a Cease and Desist order. Only if they specifically emulated that game. If they just made the engine and included a sample game that was only similar (as much as any MMORPG is similar to another) there wouldn't be a problem.

"only similar (as much as any MMORPG is similar to another)" isn't compatible with your first statement, "re-engineer a game using a different engine".

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pesky laws. really sad when they close something non-profit that's new, only because it uses their intellectual property. like the 3D Chrono Trigger and Dragon Ball Z fighting game.

I'm a fan of more liberal copying laws, but even so, bear in mind that one person's "non-profit tribute game" is another person's "free alternative that means I can no longer sell the commercial version I've worked for years on".

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Original post by azeime ...dont EVER PLAY SECOND LIFE I MEAN I HATE IT...good idea for uploading and streaming content but it is SOOOOO LAGGY, it also has poor graphics and yes it is limited

in regard to poor graphics, that's because it's user-created content, and there are no standards. And it could be the tools are too limited as well. :>
While I'm straying from the subject, I've tried learning 3D modelling, but it's just so complicated. I've taken a multi-part course and it's still not enough. There are just too many things that you need to do to make the process simple without making it take an inefficiently long amount of time.

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Original post by Hollower On the subject of 3D format standards, I haven't researched it extensively, but I hear good things about COLLADA. I guess time will tell.

Nice. While I can't really contribute to these efforts, it's nice to know someone's working on them. Thanks.

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Original post by azeime here goes imvu i havent tried it and its not as big as second life but i think it has better graphics http://www.imvu.com/

like I said, some of them are VERY limited.

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Original post by Kylotan The subject of your post didn't encompass everything in your topic. Best to make it descriptive so that people know what they're going to be reading.

Mmmm... only the last paragraph about 3D model stuff at the end fell out of topic.
do you mean MORE descriptive topic? I try to, but most forums I'm on limit the number of characters you use, so I have to really condense it as much as possible. what, should I put short descriptive headers for each paragraph? sometimes I do that, but other times I think it's just going to make it harder for people to read.

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What you find though, is that most people who want to game, don't want to chat, and vice versa. The 'best of both worlds' in your mind is the worst of both for others. They may not want to need a top of the range graphics card, or a high bandwidth connection, for example, but that is what you often need for the best MMO games.

You've never met Myst players then. :) Then again, I haven't met them in a Myst game (Uru), but I did meet one on a different MMORPG.
I don't think you need a good video card. games PUSH the requirements, but when was the last time a PC even sold without 3D video capability? :S You can't get a PC for word-processing without inadvertantly getting a crappy 3D video card in it. even a crappy card can do quite a bit. besides, how many people on the net are just casual gamers with video cards that are only moderate instead of plain horrible? after all, there IS SOME kind of market. They have some 3D chat programs out there already. I guess it is a bit of a niche market. I wonder if highspeed will become standard soon. we're already seeing reduced highspeed services that are maybe 2 times as fast as dialup or something. Hell, I can't imagine browsing the internet on dialup. I guess it's fine if all you use is IRC. I would still think that's even more of a niché than the chatroom person who's a gamer.

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Quote: Well, the main topic was why I brought this up. When it the technology going to support better quality of custom 3D avatarts for chatrooms? Tomorrow. Every day, things get 'better'. On the other hand, if you have specific requirements, that's something else. Again, remember that the average chatroom user doesn't have the same capabilities or requirements of the average gamer.

Well, I don't even see gaming technology leading the path for other things on the internet. with very few exceptions, they're completely unrelated. the time delay in technology doesn't even factor into it because they're not even trying to follow. 3D graphics from games are more closely related to 3D animated movies and TV series. (and commercials)

I don't know enough of the technical details to know "specific requirements". I don't know how fast you can transmit 3D model data.

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Quote: Those chatrooms you said resemble MMORPGs... *snip* Some have more, some have less.

Oh, I didn't search very thoroughly... I found some more stuff on wikipedia. All my perceptions came from the two I've been seeing in banner adds lately, which looked really, really lame. (like imvu)

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Quote: Quote: It's safe to say that Web technologies have very, very little to do with gaming technology. I guess because web is meant to be low-bandwidth. It's more to do with the web being an entirely different technology... client-pull, virtually no state held on the client, requirements to fit with existing web client technology, and so on.

And yet we have crap like &#106avascript trying to pump the internet full of different types of interfaces. (well, it's debatable how interactive it is...) sure, the standards suck, but they're still pushing the material.

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Quote: Hah. I didn't think in the context of game engines recycled for other games... but if you wanted it to be flexible enough to play just like a broad selection of MMORPGs, I imagine THAT would be impractical. The flexibility required would be too great, wouldn't it? That depends. Your question is a bit vague. Using a single client, I can already log on to thousands of online games, because they send output via a common protocol. That protocol is very primitive, but extending it is a question of resources available. Given that one game engine can make several games, why shouldn't that apply to MMORPGs too?

So if it's possible for a team to put together an engine for an MMORPG, it's not any more difficult to make the engine support a game that would act exactly like two different existing MMORPGs? I just figured there were focuses that each one had, and that at that level of complexity, somehow it would break-down. Then again, I never got very far in programming. I took courses, I did projects, I tried fiddling with game code in an attempt to do mods. I could never figure out how to make a mod. I wanted to make a menu command in UT2004 to tell the bot to get out of the vehicle. the command existed, but could only be triggered by voice-recognition using the mic. -_-;

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Quote: Quote: Would that be a coding nightmare to re-engineer a game using a different engine? : No, but it's a waste of time as you'll just end up served with a Cease and Desist order. Only if they specifically emulated that game. If they just made the engine and included a sample game that was only similar (as much as any MMORPG is similar to another) there wouldn't be a problem. "only similar (as much as any MMORPG is similar to another)" isn't compatible with your first statement, "re-engineer a game using a different engine".

Because one's legal, but I want it wide open for the illegal method. :) It's like making a video game console emulator. It's perfectly legal as long as you don't steal anything like BIOS data from the system in order to run it... and include it in your release. :> (a really dumb move)

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Quote: pesky laws. really sad when they close something non-profit that's new, only because it uses their intellectual property. like the 3D Chrono Trigger and Dragon Ball Z fighting game. I'm a fan of more liberal copying laws, but even so, bear in mind that one person's "non-profit tribute game" is another person's "free alternative that means I can no longer sell the commercial version I've worked for years on".

The free alternatives are always around, and always in the minority. I wonder if that will ever change, like if they become more popular. I can't say I have much sympathy for them right now. It seems like a pretty soul-sucking industry right now, and only getting worse. 10 years from now we'll have MMORPGers Anonymous meetings all over the world. No, make that 5 years.

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Original post by Chaotic Descent do you mean MORE descriptive topic? I try to, but most forums I'm on limit the number of characters you use, so I have to really condense it as much as possible. what, should I put short descriptive headers for each paragraph? sometimes I do that, but other times I think it's just going to make it harder for people to read.

No, I mean use the subject to say exactly what you'll say, and then say only that in the post. You originally titled this as being about when MMO games will support a certain technology, but drifted off into VRML, X3D, transferring characters across different games, intellectual property rights, legality of model viewers...

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Quote: What you find though, is that most people who want to game, don't want to chat, and vice versa. You've never met Myst players then. :) Then again, I haven't met them in a Myst game (Uru), but I did meet one on a different MMORPG.

I'm not saying it's an absolute. I'm just saying that although the audiences overlap, the intersection of the two sets is nowhere near as large as either set in itself.

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I don't think you need a good video card. games PUSH the requirements, but when was the last time a PC even sold without 3D video capability? :S You can't get a PC for word-processing without inadvertantly getting a crappy 3D video card in it. even a crappy card can do quite a bit.

I think you're missing the point. To stereotype people, 'hardcore gamers' expect top quality and performance. 'Casual gamers' do not. There is a significant difference in speed and visual quality between the Intel integrated graphics you get on a laptop, and a Geforce 8800. When creating your custom character, which end do you aim at? The casual market is simply not going to run out and get a Geforce 8800 just so that they can have a prettier chat room.

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Quote: It's more to do with the web being an entirely different technology... client-pull, virtually no state held on the client, requirements to fit with existing web client technology, and so on. And yet we have crap like &#106avascript trying to pump the internet full of different types of interfaces. (well, it's debatable how interactive it is...) sure, the standards suck, but they're still pushing the material.<!--QUOTE--></td></tr></table></blockquote><!--/QUOTE--><!--ENDQUOTE--><br><br>I am unsure what you're trying to say here. I certainly don't see how it relates to games. &#106avascript does more work client-side to save round-trips to the server. If people abuse it to make unintuitive interfaces, that's a shame, but it's not really relevant to the issue of standardisation or client-pull technology!<br><br><!--QUOTE--><blockquote><span class=smallfont>Quote:</span><table border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=95%><tr><td class=quote><!--/QUOTE--><!--STARTQUOTE-->So if it's possible for a team to put together an engine for an MMORPG, it's not any more difficult to make the engine support a game that would act exactly like two different existing MMORPGs?<!--QUOTE--></td></tr></table></blockquote><!--/QUOTE--><!--ENDQUOTE--><br><br>No, there's a big gap you've missed out there. The engine can support multiple games, but you still have to write the game in addition to the engine.