Well since youre making an rpg I say that story deserves the most time. story is what makes the player continue to the end of the game. Gameplay in an rpg is usualy simple and repetitive, also there are plenty of time tested formulas. If you manage to mess up gameplay in an rpg you should find a new hobby. So the quality of an rpg definatly hinges on its story.

Re: stimarco

How would you describe the differences between the story of Tic-Tac-Toe and the story from Final Fantasy?

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Original post by stimarcoYou have a point in that my reasoning isn't all that clear. (It's late and I rarely proofread my posts when I'm tired; it just makes things worse.) My rationale is derived from a lot of research and 20+ years' experience in the industry rather than lifted out of a book I can point to, so it's... well... tricky to explain in a few short lines.

I fully understand - it's surprisingly hard to define exactly what a story is. I was considering adding the line 'Then define "story"' in my very first post in this thread, but I thought that would make the tone too confrontational for the first reply.

I'm rusty on this topic; I spent some time researching methods for automated story techniques a few years back, and found early on that I didn't really understand exactly what a story is. I'm not sure I ever really found out, and these days I'm not as knowledgable about the topic as I used to be - I'll try my best to describe my viewpoint.

I tend to get a bit riled up by the "every game experience is a story" theory, mainly from my interest in automated interactive stories in games. Many of the approaches I see to that problem assume that if you provide a player a simulation of an interactive world to play around in, then whatever experience they encounter will be a "story". Frankly I think that's a simplistic view about what makes a story.

I suppose I am a structuralist in that I think stories are constructed out of their own set of rules which define their structure - although I don't think these are limited to one particular set and certainly don't have to follow the Hollywood Campbellian monomyth three act plot. I also don't think good stories have to make sense (as you said, there are plenty of examples to the contrary), but they do have there own rhythym and structure that defines them as stories rather than collections of events.

For example, if a little girl asked you to tell her a story, you wouldn't regale her with a chronological description of your last poker night. Rather, you might start off with something that begins with "Once upon a time" and ends with "and they all lived happily ever after" - that's the sort of structure a child might expect. Storytelling back before people were literate had to run like this so the storytellers could remember them - they remembered the basics of the plot but they also instictively knew all the rituals and patterns that go into stories to make them interesting. That's why you often get threes of things in fairy-tales; it's a good way to bulk out a story with two occurances of an event that doesn't progress the story followed by a third different variant that does.

That's also why I think of stories being more about the "encoding" than the content; stories are an extremely effective way of communicating with people. It's why prophets often used parables to make their points; the encoding into story made the idea stronger and easier for people to grasp.

So I don't consider every game to contain a story - it would be like considering any collection of sound to be music. Without the right sort of structure, to me it just doesn't fall into the definition.

I could also post a lot more, but I've written too much and am taking this fairly off-topic!

Yeah but look at games that had no story or very little, like doom and wolfenstein. Thats all gameplay there dude. seriously who even cared about the lame ass stories in those games anyways...

Gameplay always comes first, then the story. Plenty of fun flash games out there with no stories.

If you want a story with no gameplay go read a freaking book.

besides, gameplay is way harder to master than a lame story. Demons, no fairies, no aliens, fantasy, no future.. its all there.

we can take a game with good gameplay, and make it work with ANY STORY we want to, and it will still kick ass.

You take the greatest story ever told by a human being, and turn it into a pos gameplay experience, well you loose.

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Original post by ForeverNoobie Well since youre making an rpg I say that story deserves the most time. story is what makes the player continue to the end of the game. Gameplay in an rpg is usualy simple and repetitive, also there are plenty of time tested formulas. If you manage to mess up gameplay in an rpg you should find a new hobby. So the quality of an rpg definatly hinges on its story.

Please, for the love of God, don't make another repetitive and cliche "RPG".

I rather die from starvation :/

I rather have pain of death in my stomach than in my throat >.>

Of coure, I rather not die at all. but if I have to choose, and if I actually have a choise <.<

Gameplay.

and it should be the thing you design, and have the story evolve around your rules of gameplay. Thats the way nintendo worked out all of their marios and zeldas. the story was always a function of the evolving gameplay. And, to say, the Zelda stories are normally awesome. And that is actually because they never cared at first.

Make a great gameplay, define fitting rules, and create a basic start into your game. Then design around the gameplay rules you gave, evolve them, let it be fun all the time, and watch the story evolve during that design. The result: an always fun game with a story that has no strange faults (because it always has to fit and work out), and no places in the game which are boring just because of the story.

Too much games try to fit gameplay around a story. That normally results in repetitive gameplay, boring passages with no really interesting events, and sometimes strange boundaries to your games (you're just not allowed to go there, because of the story, even while you could).

There are exceptions of course (games like goldeneye, but they stretched the story to fit the gameplay as well), but it's the most easy way to get a great game.


So, gameplay wins.

I mean.. I've played hours and hours tetris, shanghai, dr. mario, and other puzzle games. Did I ever cared about those "stories"? :D

WEll I mean, you can't really have an RPG without a kick ass story. No one is going to want to play it. And unfortunately, you can't really have a system that isn't going to be repetitive. I mean, I'm adding a bunch of sweet stuff to it, but I mean, no matter how much you add, it's gonna' get old at some point. Since RPG's are so long, and you want to make the game difficult by a slower leveling system, people are going to get bored of the gameplay and unless if there is a sweet story that they want to know the rest of, then their just gonna' drop the controller and call it a day.

So I'm thinking story is very very important in an RPG and gameplay is pretty basic to design. I'm trying to add as many new things as I can, coming up with ideas that I haven't seen in games before, and dropping what I think won't work. But there is always the fact that if you have a long story like RPG's tend to, then your going to drag out the gameplay, and then the gameplay is going to get boring probably after a few hours and the only reason that a player is going to want to play your game is to get to the end of the story and see what happens. I'm really focusing on getting the player into the characters and really enjoy seeing them progress.

I'm trying to hit the emotional aspect of the story hardcore. I'm also trying to throw in some in-game cinematics, like what they did in F.E.A.R. When you would just be walking around and that little girl would just walk across the screen or something. So I mean, it's definitely not a steryotypical RPG, it's actually quite gory, explicit, dangerous, and probably offensive to damn near everyone, but I think that's what it needs, people don't do that with RPG's.

They play it safe and they make the same god damn story all over again, maybe with some better graphics. I'm just really hoping that the game ends up being original and maybe some people will like it. But I think I'm going with what the few people said about story. I too believe that the story is the most important aspect of a game, and I just wanted to see who else thought that as well. I'll try and make the gameplay as interesting as possible for the rest of you though. :P Thanks again for the feedback.

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Original post by KymTheAssassin Since RPG's are so long [...] people are going to get bored of the gameplay and unless if there is a sweet story that they want to know the rest of, then their just gonna' drop the controller and call it a day.

There's an assumption there that being long is an inherrent property of RPGs. You seem to be interested in trying something different - just because all the other RPGs you've played are long doesn't mean yours has to be. [wink] Don't make it long just because that's how RPGs are, make it as long as you need to tell your story.

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and you want to make the game difficult by a slower leveling system

Do you? I know I certainly don't want to; I hate the levelling treadmill. Again this is how other games have done it, not neccesarily how every game must do it. If you want to do something a bit different how about thinking about alternatives to the usual levelling system? Levelling is usually included as a gameplay reward and a way to measure progress - but there are plenty of other ways to reward the player and to indicate thier progress. A slower levelling system doesn't neccesarily make the game more difficult, it usually just makes it exactly that - slower. You could increase difficulty by making smarter/tougher/more diverse enemies, or making the player solve tricky puzzles.


I do like the fact that you're trying to do a different story though, that's certainly a move in the right direction. I would like to see the gameplay vary a bit too though. [smile]

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Original post by KymTheAssassin WEll I mean, you can't really have an RPG without a kick ass story. No one is going to want to play it.

I've played Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion for over 100 hours. I'm only about three missions into the "story".

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And unfortunately, you can't really have a system that isn't going to be repetitive.

No, you can't really have a system that isn't going to be repetitive. I can, as can any good game designer. Apparently you need to do some studying before you take on an RPG.

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I mean, I'm adding a bunch of sweet stuff to it

The amount of "stuff" in it doesn't mean dick.

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but I mean, no matter how much you add, it's gonna' get old at some point.

So stop adding worthless shit and design a system that is fun. The number of different hats my character can wear doesn't make the game any more fun (unless it's Hatris, but that wasn't very fun to begin with).

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Since RPG's are so long

That's a blanket statement.

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and you want to make the game difficult by a slower leveling system

Dear God no. Leveling isn't difficult, leveling is repetitive busy work. It's grinding. Difficult is something that requires skill to get past, not hours of experience farming.

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people are going to get bored of the gameplay

Only if the gameplay sucks.

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and unless if there is a sweet story that they want to know the rest of, then their just gonna' drop the controller and call it a day.

Then you should start making movies. You're in the wrong business.

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So I'm thinking story is very very important in an RPG and gameplay is pretty basic to design.

Good luck, I look forward to you proving this theory with a game that doesn't put me to sleep. Really, I do.

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I'm trying to add as many new things as I can

Wrong

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coming up with ideas that I haven't seen in games before

Right

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and dropping what I think won't work.

Right

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But there is always the fact that if you have a long story like RPG's tend to, then your going to drag out the gameplay

So don't have a long story like "RPG's tend to". There are no set-in-stone rules as to what a game should be, and Final Fantasy is certainly not the epitome of all greatness in games.

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and then the gameplay is going to get boring probably after a few hours and the only reason that a player is going to want to play your game is to get to the end of the story and see what happens.

So you PLAN on making a game people don't want to play and then bribing them with a story? Good luck with that. We all know how insanely popular Xenosaga was...

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I'm really focusing on getting the player into the characters and really enjoy seeing them progress.

Good

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I'm trying to hit the emotional aspect of the story hardcore.

Now we're getting somewhere...

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I'm also trying to throw in some in-game cinematics

...nope, we lost it.

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So I mean, it's definitely not a steryotypical RPG, it's actually quite gory, explicit, dangerous, and probably offensive to damn near everyone, but I think that's what it needs, people don't do that with RPG's.

Good. Now make it fun.

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They play it safe and they make the same god damn story all over again, maybe with some better graphics.

Agreed.

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I'm just really hoping that the game ends up being original and maybe some people will like it.

"Hope" is not a game designer. I can't "hope that I brush my teeth tonight". I can't "hope that someday I'll leave the house". You want it to be original? Stop hoping and start designing!

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But I think I'm going with what the few people said about story. I too believe that the story is the most important aspect of a game, and I just wanted to see who else thought that as well.

Not many, but apparently you didn't ask that question to get any sort of real poll at all. It seems you were just trying to get a few people to say "ok" so you could convince yourself that lazy design is good practice.

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I'll try and make the gameplay as interesting as possible for the rest of you though.

Thanks. I feel so privileged.

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:P Thanks again for the feedback.

Anytime.