Alexander (the Great) used Pike units as shock troops. He had them lightly armored so that they could move fast (often at a run) to attack and overwhelm enemy infantry units (and would be able to defend themselves from cavalry).

Romans were in the 'Iron Age' and used Iron/Steel weapons/armor (AND mass production of them).

Pikes were used later in mass formations (squares) to protect archers/crossbowmen/musketeers from cavalry and infantry. Special semi-suicide troops were armed with 6 foot swords to try to chop enough heads off of pikes to weaken a section of a pike formation to allow assault by cavalry. Later gun armed cavalry was used in a similar way to erode a section of the pike formation (usually the corners).

Cannon and massed muskets spelled the effective end of pikes (which being massed made good targets). The bayonet (on every musket/rifle) took its place.

i do miss the old way of battle, on a field, all lined up. has way more class than this gureilla warfare small squad shootouts like now... or errr plane droppings/cruise missles.

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Original post by DarkMortar i do miss the old way of battle, on a field, all lined up. has way more class than this gureilla warfare small squad shootouts like now... or errr plane droppings/cruise missles.

But then others would say "I miss the days when you had single combat with swords, instead of this 'namby-pamby' gun firing stuff........

[Edited by - wodinoneeye on November 10, 2006 6:02:27 AM]

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Original post by wodinoneeye Quote: Original post by DarkMortar i do miss the old way of battle, on a field, all lined up. has way more class than this gureilla warfare small squad shootouts like now... or errr plane droppings/cruise missles. But then others would say "I miss the days when you had single combat with swords, instead of thus 'namby-pamby' gun firing stuff........

On the other hand, in the days of old you actually had a change of survival. If a untrained civilian picked up a sword, you could incidentally injure an opponent.

Now you step outside of your house and are struck by a grenade, cluster bomb, mine, etc. Or you're shot down by a sniper, tank, highly trained marine with night goggles, etc. With other words you just don't stand a chance in present times.

So I wouldn't want to live in the past but the present offers minor chances of survival.

p.s.

I would take my chances in the Dune universe where high speed weapons are useless because a soldier can use a personal shield and this prohibits the use of laser fire since you don't want the Holtzman effect to bite you in the ass!
And instead of learning programming I would want to be a Sword Master of Ginaz

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Original post by wodinoneeye Special semi-suicide troops were armed with 6 foot swords to try to chop enough heads off of pikes to weaken a section of a pike formation to allow assault by cavalry.

Do you have a source for this? chopping the heads off of pikes is actually rather hard. Many are made of a fairly strong wood, Ash is usually a fairly good choice as when it dries it gets REALLY hard. So if you hit it with something, you might chip it a little, but you're just going to knock it out of the way a little till they recover a bit.

However, one style of countering pike, which I can't remember 100% sure so if someone does know for sure, please please correct me, is to use troops with light armour, light small shields, and I forget the style of sword, but something compact. The goal being to DIVE to the ground, and roll under the heads of the pikes as fast as you can. Once you are inside 5 feet from the front men, no one can touch you with a pike without them breaking the formation to let the back men level their pikes at you. You only need one or two guys to get there in a short section to collapse it, as if they start killing people, everyone is going to have to drop their pikes to draw side arms.

Also, pikes that are kept upright (as in those not in the front 3/4 ranks, can provide a surprising protection from arrow volleies. I didn't expect this to be true till I saw a demostration of it. (Sadly, I didn't own a video camera at the time :( why couldn't I have had one then? it looked so cool. Some of the dummies 'died' but still, less than I would have expected)

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Original post by Anonymous Poster the spears are short "sticks" to throw at the enemy. the advantages are that you can carry a shield in the offhand and you can draw a sword or an axe when you threw your spear away. the romanian spears were called "pilum", they where not intended to be thrown, but to keep away the enemy from the soldiers, like in a phalanx. quote: a 'pike' IS a spear, the same as a lance is a spear, however not all spears are lances or pikes - actually never heard of a lanceman :-)

erm can we say no, no and no?
spears wernt short or made with the idea to throw, the pilum and wikipedia will back this us, were designed to throw. as for lance men they were mounted called knights or heavy cavalry.

also i thought i should input that long spears (5 ft +) are very hard to use singal handedly, they can be set up to recive a charge one handed but you still need the strength of two hands to brace. what was commonly done was in the offhand use a sheild with arm straps not a hand grip so the hand could be used, also cut outs in the sheilds helped, the top right corner or middle right (although middle right was usally to fit better in a sheild wall)

btw i was thinking of the raised pikes theory, and it sounds good but once the pike is struck wont the arrow still fall on your head? or would it just be a light weight not to cause injury?

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Original post by 95CKILMA btw i was thinking of the raised pikes theory, and it sounds good but once the pike is struck wont the arrow still fall on your head? or would it just be a light weight not to cause injury?

The arrow would still fall, but a much less velocity. So if you weren't wearing a helmet you may get nicked but it wouldn't be life threatning. But that is if the arrow did not get stuck in the wood of the pike.

With volleys of arrows, they archers were there to clear out as many fighters as possible before the hand to hand combat began. Many battles could be won by archers alone if they were good enough. Plus most people were protected by shields against volleys of arrows. The archers were also protected by shield bearers.

Yeah, the arrows going into the pike feild will just be slowed down, some will still die, but it really cuts the numbers down. Arrows will be stopped/deflected. Lots of small wounds, but a lot fewer people that are too hurt to keep fighting or killed outright.

There was something else I thought of while playing pool tonight, but sadly I've forgotten it already. Annoyingly I can't remember why I remembered it while playing pool.

But still, there is no 'rock paper sissors' to these things, and no army is made of cookie cutter soldiers. All would have their gear just a little different than the guy beside him. Later eras did see much more uniform uniforms, but still.

If you are going for really early firearms and bayonnets, remember that most are plug bayonnets, which means you can't put them on the lugs and keep firing.

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Original post by Talroth Also, pikes that are kept upright (as in those not in the front 3/4 ranks, can provide a surprising protection from arrow volleies. I didn't expect this to be true till I saw a demostration of it. (Sadly, I didn't own a video camera at the time :( why couldn't I have had one then? it looked so cool. Some of the dummies 'died' but still, less than I would have expected)

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Original post by Talroth Yeah, the arrows going into the pike feild will just be slowed down, some will still die, but it really cuts the numbers down. Arrows will be stopped/deflected. Lots of small wounds, but a lot fewer people that are too hurt to keep fighting or killed outright.

You sure about that? Archers were the bane of the pikemen since their maneuverability and armor was terrible.

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Original post by tstrimp Quote: Original post by Talroth Also, pikes that are kept upright (as in those not in the front 3/4 ranks, can provide a surprising protection from arrow volleies. I didn't expect this to be true till I saw a demostration of it. (Sadly, I didn't own a video camera at the time :( why couldn't I have had one then? it looked so cool. Some of the dummies 'died' but still, less than I would have expected) Quote: Original post by Talroth Yeah, the arrows going into the pike feild will just be slowed down, some will still die, but it really cuts the numbers down. Arrows will be stopped/deflected. Lots of small wounds, but a lot fewer people that are too hurt to keep fighting or killed outright. You sure about that? Archers were the bane of the pikemen since their maneuverability and armor was terrible.

Where are you getting this information?

Remember, no armour, not even romans in Testudo are immune to arrows. I'm not saying that raised pikes are going to catch ALL the arrows and that they'll never take losses, but it will greatly cut losses down. Think of it as the difference between Colonial era British Red Coats lineing up shoulder to shoulder, vs US Civil War troops hiding behind trees. Both are common tactics from history, but which will take fewer losses? Will the Civil War troops NOT take losses? No, they can still take fairly heavy loses, but how many MORE are going to die if they were fighting in closed line formations?


Remember, history does NOT have a DM's Manual, clearly laying out just who had what in cut and dried lists. "Pikemen" may be germanic conscripts, pulled off their farms from when they were out in their fields, and given a 'pike' that is made while they're marching to a battlefield and their pike is simply a fairly straight and thin tree with the branches cut off and the tip sharpened (please note I don't know if this actually happened with germanic, I'm just sitting next to a german girl in a computer lab and they were the first to come to mind). No training, no armour, and next to no chance of heading back to their farms.

However, if you look at wealthy Swiss armies of around the 1500 and 1600's (forget how early and late they are, I'm at the university and don't have my notes on armour with me) many of these soldiers are going to have a fairly nice set of field armour. Very close to 'full' armour, with plate, maille, leather, or other fabric armours covering nearly everything but the face. The cost of their gear would be more than the land the farmers in the above example is worth likely.

So, in short: As far as your game goes, how wealthy and powerful do you want your pikemen to be?