Hello, I've been thinking that a possible reason why an MMORPG can appeal to some is that the amount of time they spend on their character is shown through their progress (which is true for any RPG). The difference between the MMO and your single player RPG is that in the MMO you can brag about it or just stand by the Brit Bank with your cool vanq katana. Hardcore players dislike level caps (from what I can tell anyways... not an actual study :P) because a casual player can catch up to them and their time invested in the game isn't reflected on their character. Would superficial change keep hardcore players happy? For example, what if the player's character could gain scars, their armour would chip, the npc's would "recognize" them and treat them differently according to how much time they invested in the character. Maybe instead of gaining experience for levels they'd gain exprerience to gain "trait points" to trade these in for scars/chips/other gimmicks? Do you guys think superficial bonuses are good idea? If yes, what kind of changes could offered? Would this just introduce a whole new grind and just restart the whole cycle again? Is this a good idea or is it a really common concept that's been over discussed (lol :P) ? ((no I'm not making an MMO, I just like talking about features that could be implemented in one.))

Well, I've been hooked on the old roge-type RPGs like Nethack, Angband and ToME. and I kind of enjoy the Permadeath aspect, particularly in ToME when you look at monsters, then if one of your previous characters was killed by one, it says something like:

Giant Slug, one of your ancestors has been killed by this creature and has not been avenged.

Which I think gives a nice little taste of history, knowing that while your previous character didn't make it. They are still remembered.

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Anyway, for an MMORPG [never actually played on unfortunatly so take my advice with a grain of salt] Suppose each player can play their game and in a sort of pseudo-permadeath mechanic, when they die they have to option of laying that char to rest.

Then, they can give certain stat bonuses to the characters decendant. Perhaps a boost in strength, inheriting some of the items and money, learning high-level skills that their parent knew, etc.

Then, the veteren player can start anew with a new character who is a bit more powerful than other characters his 'age' because of past acomplishments. Naturally, there would be some limits to how powerful a character could be... but still let them create powerful chars with enough high-level inheritance.

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Then list their liniage to help remind of past charactes. like:

Eric the noble.
son of Durken the wise
son of Elana the terrible
daughter of Sark the devious
son of Gareth the impoverished.


With various titles being chosen from that characters acomplishments and so forth.

You could even allow for special weapons that are attuned to special family lines or something... basically a weapon that the player sticks with for several characters gets a bonus for that one players continual use.

Anyway, that's one idea. I know perma-death isn't something that many people are fond of, so an optional permadeath would probablly be a good substitute.

I think the main reason people don't like level caps is because the process of gaining levels is generally the most fun and rewarding part of playing an MMORPG. The realities of game design generally dictate that at some point you need to have a cutoff since you can't produce an infinite amount of new content to go with it. (Procedural generation is an option for an "infinite grind" I suppose, but most players prefer handcrafted content and quests to procedurally generated ones if they're going to pay $15 a month).

As for your examples, I can't imagine those specific ones would be popular. I don't have any statistics to back it up, but in my experience the majority don't like scars or chips in their armor; they like sexy flawless heroes/supermodels and shiny glowing magic armor. I certainly wouldn't grind for hours to pay to get my armor to look more and more broken.

However, I do think general non-gameplay stuff can still be an incentive for people to grind. I think players prefer cooler looking armor, nicer colors, special fiery glows, evil auras, etc. than chips and scars. Also, titles and checklists are popular; getting titles like "Ultimate Explorer" for visiting every area, or "Dragonslayer" for killing 1000 dragons.

Well, I for one find it appealing to garner dents in my armor, chips on my blade and scars on my face if I were a warrior/fighter in an mmo.
It is stature. It is “look what I have been though” and “look what I have earned”.

Why do you think guys like to show their scars to chicks at bars? Same thing.

Another take on it would be hair length. If you have been playing a while the hair on your head and face would grow over time. You’d be given a choice on how to style it. A gruff ZZTop beard or something Gallic with braids and twists.

If you’re a newbie you’ll start the game with a “look, just back from basic” brush cut. Tattoos as well can play a large part. The player would earn one for each successful mission/adventure. Maybe that’s the culture of the society the game is set in. save up your tattoo points and get yourself a big one on your back or an elaborate one on your face.

Generally I think you are right. Players have to keep earning things to stay interested and that doesn’t always have to mean goods. It can be personality too.

Wow, I’d love to be a part of a game like that. start as a new guy, adventure a lot, grow old, loose my left eye along the way (no, the left side of the screen wont be blacked out :D) wrinkles, scares, maybe a missing finger or noticeable limp! Maybe I am odd but I think I’d enjoy developing my character further that having the coolest Purple Armor of Adore +16 to defend, the Sword of Agmock +10 to hit and a treasure trove of skins I cant sell to an NPC.

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Original post by The Shadow Nose Eric the noble. son of Durken the wise son of Elana the terrible daughter of Sark the devious son of Gareth the impoverished.

Brilliant.

I love it when death is incorporated into a game on a more mature level.

I think that this is a great idea. It should hopefully stop everybody from looking exactly the same.

Well, I do think the idea of having some minor "quirks" to seperate your character from others would be a nice thing. Particularly in a game where its possible for many characters to look alike. Though I'm not sure if having these directly translate to the character model would be worth the graphics involved...

Perhaps have the character model (The thing you run around and stab things with) stay basicaly the same. And have a sort of seperate description page with an image of the players face. Then they can add scars or tatoos or jewelry to the description pic by spending "character points" or something. Not sure how to keep a balance between the "I want battlescars" group and the "Not the face! Not the Face!" group. Though, if someone wants a battle-scar they could just write n their description "I have a scar on my left cheek from fighting the Ravenous Bugbladder Beast of Trall"


I can easily see there being a type of healers or barbers that could help edit things like facial appearence, hair, or remove unwanted scars or tatoos. Or add tatoos or whatever. Can't really picture people scarring themselves on purpose though.

dont you think it would be better to have your get scars from playing and not choosing? i dont want to be the guy walking around with a limp and a missing middle finger on my left had because i choose to.

I'm the guy who got into a brawl with 3 really nasty dowds. the last one of which bit off my finger! he paid for that with his very life!
and this limp...this limp i got fighting the Roaring Beast of Alaban. He whiped his firey tail around and caught me straight in me hip. i'm lucky to be alive. i'll be back for him though...ill be back.

catch my drift?

to those "not in the face" people who dont want a scar, well, they need to find themself another role playing game if they cant role play.

To have limitless character progression in a stat based system, you could model high level-up bonuses on the harmonic series (1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + ... etc.). Even though the stat bonuses you receive at level up are gradually smaller and smaller, you can eventually reach any level of power since the series diverges (albeit very slowly). If your game includes random spawns of enemies, than these too can be moulded for higher and higher levels, so that the monsters you fight becomes more powerful as you do.

This would be the easy way out however. The real solution is in character customization - appearences are one thing, but you'll still end up as "clones" at the end of the game even if you don't look the same. I'm talking about customized weapons, abilities, spells, you name it. So you want to make a sword: what materials do you want for the blade? the hilt? how long do you want it? how much curvature? The trouble is, you never want a "best" setup, and need advantages and disadvantages to each. For instance in the example above, harder materials for the blade could allow you to sharpen it more whereas softer materials are more durable, a longer blade has better reach but is heavier than a shorter one meaning you can't attack as quickly, and whereas a curvy blade gets bonuses at slashing attacks a straighter one is better for stabbing. You get the idea.

Many games choose the route of simply making 'the perfect build' statistically unattainable, but technically capped, instead of directly and obviously limited in a closed progression. You brought up ultima online in your original post, and that game had a very obvious and clear limit to what can be gotten, as far as experience is concerned, and opened up to players who wanted 'more' in the form of posessions, like tamed dragons, and black horses [nightmares], ect. It's not a MMO, but Diablo 2 had exactly the sort of statistically unattainable maximum strength that I'm refering to, and makes a good example in this case. Your sword has 401% ehanced damage? Sure that's darn good, but it's no 402%, and considering ranges from 300-420% ed [example, not real], with a base damage that ranges from (100 - 102) min to (180 - 202) max, with a durability ranging from (90 - 110), and a fire resistance ranging from (20-55), and so on and so on. For every piece of equipment. The chances of finding a truely 'perfect' example of a highest level piece is SO tiny, that it can almost be dismissed.

It does happen though, and these 'perfect' items do exist, and are the product of a 1/HUGE NUMBER likelyhood of having occured. but even if you have the perfect sword, your shoes are only 97.8% what they 'could' be, so you still have room for improvement.

It's technically possible to have all perfect stuff, but the statistical probability of having any given piece perfect, combined with the number of pieces you need to have all perfect, is so tiny that you can consider it zero [thus always room for improvement]