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Original post by Edtharan Well you could use an interupt spell to interupt another interupt spell (did that make sense?). Each interupt spell can jump infront of another interupt spell. Normal spells can't do this (but tend to be more powerful).

That's exactly how they work! Interrupt spells go into a "stack" with newer spells on top of older spells. When everybody's done casting interrupts, you begin resolving from the top of the stack downward. Normal speed spells aren't necessarily more powerful, just cheaper.

But I still don't get why a fireball should be capable of undoing any water spell. Even if it made sense to me, it wouldn't matter, because everybody would get counter-happy. I'd sacrifice every spell in my hand to prevent you from casting "Summon Ultimate Megadeath Muspellheimr Hellprince Surtr", wouldn't you? Nobody would ever get to bring Surtr into battle, because nobody else would let them!

@Technogoth:
Either I don't understand what you mean (very probable), or you misunderstood what I meant by counterspell. In M:tG, there is a blue spell called "Counterspell" that cancels any other spell that hasn't resolved yet. You seem to be using counter in a different way, and I don't quite understand what effect that would have on the battle.

However, your suggestion on a "quick play" game would solve my original problem, but how would players collect spells and minions? This would also preclude the use of magic outside of battle, which was the original impetus for this project. Without the "gotta catch 'em all!" metagame, and the creative use of magic as puzzle-solving, I don't think it would be all that interesting.

What I was suggesting was something less rigid as magic and more dynamic. That spells could be used more generically. So you don't need "counter spell" to stop a fireball. You could block it with a summon creature spell, or a deflection spell, or and spell that can either block or counter its attributes.

So, not only would "dispel enchantment" allow you remove your opponent’s enchantments it could be used to destroy "magically animated creatures"

You could probably even devise away to make interesting combinations of spells. So casting blizzard would be useful to weaken the attack of fire user but also allows evolves water based spells into ice based ones.

Lesser water elemental not strong enough to break through your opponent’s wall stone? Evolve it into an ice elemental by casting blizzard and watch the wall crumble.

It would be a different set of game mechanics to that of magic the gathering but it could be a good.

This would allow you to also use magic for problems solving, out side of battle.

Need to get past a living wall?
You could disenchant it to turn it to a normal stone wall and then use a force blast to destroy the wall.

Puzzles would consist of figuring out a correct combination or spells to overcome the various properties a puzzle object has. It would allow you to come up with some unusual puzzles and provide multiple ways to solve them. Need to stop a wall of thorns from regenerating? Any fire based spell will do.

Collecting spells and minions depends heavily on the kind of game you want to make it. Spells might have to be learnt or created. Maybe you could have mystical words or ingredients collection aspect to the game that allows that has to be done in order to create new spells. To create the fireball spell you need to find some ash and a lead ball, those can then be combined in your lab to extract the mystical essence of the fireball spell.

Minions could have to be bound to you, either by subduing them in battle and the casting a binding spell strong enough to contain their mystical essence, or by forming a contract with them if they are intelligent. Forming a contract would require the player to perform a service or provide some form of payment. Want to be able to summon Azorath the Dragon King? You will need to slay his nemesis the lich king form him and return the lich kings crown as proof.

It will all depend though on what kind of game you are trying to make.

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Original post by TechnoGoth What I was suggesting was something less rigid as magic and more dynamic. That spells could be used more generically. So you don't need "counter spell" to stop a fireball. You could block it with a summon creature spell, or a deflection spell, or and spell that can either block or counter its attributes.

I've already thought of a "deflection" spell for earth. It's a lesser cousin to air's "retarget" spell. As far as summoning a creature to take damage for you, I wouldn't consider that a counter. I was using "counterspell" in the strict sense of "cancel target spell before it finishes casting".

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So, not only would "dispel enchantment" allow you remove your opponent’s enchantments it could be used to destroy "magically animated creatures"

That's already in M:tG, in a sense. Let's say you animate a dead creature with "Animate Dead", destroying the "Animate Dead" spell sends him back to the graveyard. I think we're really just using alternate definitions of the word "counter". I meant it in the sense of "stop a spell", you meant it more along the lines of "give every spell a way of being circumvented".

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...stuff about using spells on the environment and collecting spells/minions...

Those are all good ideas, but that wasn't quite the question I meant. [grin] I was referring to your suggestion of making it "quick play". If I decide to make it entirely quick play, I will solve my "what to do with summoned stuff" problem, but it will remove the environment part of the game. What I was really asking was "How should a player collect things if there is only the quick play battles?"

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But I still don't get why a fireball should be capable of undoing any water spell.

Instead of having a specific counter spell "card" to break the spells, what it is is that the Fire energy cancels the Water energy (think Positive and Negative electricity). SO the spell is not countered, just the energy of that spell is nullified. This could make it interesting for spells that requier 2 or more types of energy/elements, as some of the spell might still get through (though if the second player counter spelled each of the elements it could still counter spell it properly).

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everybody would get counter-happy. I'd sacrifice every spell in my hand to prevent you from casting "Summon Ultimate Megadeath Muspellheimr Hellprince Surtr", wouldn't you? Nobody would ever get to bring Surtr into battle, because nobody else would let them!

That would be the point. If you get too counter happy you will weaken you ability to counter any other attacks from your opponent (and you can counter spell their counter spells). You could use the "Summon Ultimate Megadeath Muspellheimr Hellprince Surtr" as a decoy before your real attack to weaken your opponent, or if they anticipate this then they might take the hit and then be ina good position to attack you (may be by getting you to reenforce your spell, while they discard weak spells that they don't use). Also if they used a decoy to weaken your hand before bringing out the "Summon Ultimate Megadeath Muspellheimr Hellprince Surtr" they might be able to out counter you and get the spell out. So yes these big powerful spells will not be played each and every turn, but it will be a set piece that a player can base a strategy on.

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Want to be able to summon Azorath the Dragon King? You will need to slay his nemesis the lich king form him and return the lich kings crown as proof.

This could be a good idea. If you have the player have to amke a choice between gettiing the Dragon King (by killing the Lich King), or getting the Lich King (by killing the Dragon King) you give the player an interesing choice to make as each might work better with a different spell/deck slection/composition.

So if you have previously defeated (and captured) The Vampire Lord, then the addition of the Lich King might allow you to use your undead spells better, or may be you might want a more rounded and flexable spellbook/deck and decide go for the Dragon King. This makes the building of a spellbook/deck part fo the game play and more engaging for the players.

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Original post by Edtharan Quote: But I still don't get why a fireball should be capable of undoing any water spell. Instead of having a specific counter spell "card" to break the spells, what it is is that the Fire energy cancels the Water energy (think Positive and Negative electricity). SO the spell is not countered, just the energy of that spell is nullified. This could make it interesting for spells that requier 2 or more types of energy/elements, as some of the spell might still get through (though if the second player counter spelled each of the elements it could still counter spell it properly).

In that case, do you really even need to use a spell for that? If it's just an opposing energy, then couldn't you just spend X fire mana without discarding a fire spell? I was thinking of letting players earn "innate" abilities that they don't need to use a spell/card for. This could certainly be an ability that everybody starts with.

Although, this is WAY off-topic by now. My original question was about how I should deal with creatures I summon during battle once the battle ends? Should they disappear back into my "deck" of spells? Should they remain on the field? If so, how many? I can see a scenario where I just walk from battle to battle with 40 snakes or squirrels or whatever, and the enemies just don't have a chance.

How about giving all spells a control cost? Each spell you want to keep active beyond a single round decreases your concentration stat by its control cost. So if you have 5 concentration and Clockwork soldiers requrire 2 control to maintain then you keep up two with you at any time. If you summoned another one it would vanish at end of turn or how ever long a turn would last in realtime.

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Original post by TechnoGoth How about giving all spells a control cost? Each spell you want to keep active beyond a single round decreases your concentration stat by its control cost. So if you have 5 concentration and Clockwork soldiers requrire 2 control to maintain then you keep up two with you at any time. If you summoned another one it would vanish at end of turn or how ever long a turn would last in realtime.

That's actually a great idea.

I thought of something similar for a real-time RPG (Elder scrolls or Everquest types). In that sense, you would avoid having to cast spells every 60 seconds, but you would have to cancel an enchantment in order to add a new one, because your mind can only keep track of so many spells at once.

I'm going to have to do some thinking about how to integrate all this without experience levels, but I think this could work out well.

My only concern is writing an excuse for unsummoning physical objects into the game world. I mean, if I finished summoning them, why would they get sent back?

Hmm...well, I'll have to say Ratings++!

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In that case, do you really even need to use a spell for that? If it's just an opposing energy, then couldn't you just spend X fire mana without discarding a fire spell?

You could, but part of the "cost" of counter spelling is that you loose some ability to, your spell. Also as you have to pay for the spell it gives a varing cost as you have to "pay" the mana cost of the spell too.

It is this loss of availble spell that will stop just an all out conterspelling, and provide more stratigic and tactical choices for the players. Just using mana to counter spell removes a choice from the players (if a players mana refreshes at the begining of their turn they would alwayse try to counter spell - therefore no effctive choice as not to counterspell will be giving your self a disadvantage for no reason).

By having a specific counterspell card that the player has to draw also removes a choice to counterspell from the player and makes it just a random event. If you have the counterspell card then you only have a choice of when to use it (not if you wnat to use it), but if you don't have the card then you don't have any choice in the matter. If you want a game that relies on players stratigies, then don't remove those choices and put them into the hands of chance.

There's a really great old game called "Master of Magic," see if you can get your hands on it.

It was a 4X (ie, Civilization-like) game, but the magic system was heavily "influenced" by M:tG. There were summoning spells, global enchantments, unit enchantments, direct damage spells, counter magic, meta magic, etc. Some spells would be availiable for casting in a battle or out, but the effects would be a bit different; for instance, you could summon low-mid level creatures within combat, but they disappeared after the fight.

The graphics are severely dated, you'll probably need DOSbox, the AI is utterly crap...but it's still a fantastic game. It's worth checking out to see an imaginative magic system in action.