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Original post by smr Quote: Original post by ForeverNoobie I think permadeath is more trouble than its worth. I mean whats the point of it? does it really make the game more fun? thats what games are about after all. Is permadeath an atempt to make the game more realistic? whats next? a MMO with characters that have office jobs? I agree. What are the advantages of permadeath? Why is it so appealing to some people?

Enchanced opportunity for griefing.

It also adds adrenaline to play via the gravity of 'omg I might lose everything!'. I've never understood such thinking, as I don't like thrills. I also can't imagine the thrill of victory is anywhere near the equally likely agony of defeat...

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Original post by Telastyn It also adds adrenaline to play via the gravity of 'omg I might lose everything!'. I've never understood such thinking, as I don't like thrills. I also can't imagine the thrill of victory is anywhere near the equally likely agony of defeat...

Are you guys even reading this? No one is losing everything. It's more like "omg, I might lose my last few hours of progress!" Which is apparently acceptable in every game that uses saves.

There are some words that just can't be talked about, apparently.

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Original post by abstractimmersion I wouldn't have titled the thread so provocatively had I not known that people don't like the word "permadeath," but apparently it's a much dirtier and offensive word than I'd realized.

Yeah, the word permadeath usualy means losing alot, if not everything. After reading your last two post Im starting to see what you mean. I like to experiment in MMOs trying out different paths. So If the permadeath system is based around that idea, I'll like it.

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And, even if we were, I don't think it really is an option if we use todays MMORPG designs, where several hundred or even thousands of hours is needed to "max out" your character. Even if you "only" lose 10 levels, that can be an extremely harsh penalty. I can't really see how games would become better because of it.

I agree with that, thats a steep punishment asuming leveling, in the game with this system, will be as hard and as long as in the games that I play.

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Original post by abstractimmersion Quote: Original post by Telastyn It also adds adrenaline to play via the gravity of 'omg I might lose everything!'. I've never understood such thinking, as I don't like thrills. I also can't imagine the thrill of victory is anywhere near the equally likely agony of defeat... Are you guys even reading this? No one is losing everything. It's more like "omg, I might lose my last few hours of progress!" Which is apparently acceptable in every game that uses saves. There are some words that just can't be talked about, apparently.

Woo! Hours wasted because of lag, or PKing, or being stuck with terrible teammates, or any number of reasons that aren't likely my fault. At least if I don't save my game I've nobody to blame but myself.

If you want players to be able to dabble, do something like Guild Wars where you can re-assign points/spells in town. Plenty of fun without the downside.

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Original post by abstractimmersion I should note that this idea didn't actually begin out of a desire to punish players for death, but to loosen up a players commitment to a certain character. If you make some bad optimization decisions mid game, starting a character over at level one is an unappealing rememdy. This system allows and encourages players to dabble in different career paths, and to not start at level one each time.

This element is very appealing to me. There's nothing worse than realizing that, after 400 hours of gameplay, your character is an invalid, with neither the attributes nor the remaining attainable ability points to become anything special.

As to entering lost characters into the "Hall of Fame", is there any game in existence where the top 500 slots of the leaderboard aren't hackers and exploiters? Between the endless list of winbotters on the Starcraft board, the XBox live rankings that serve as a directory of cheaters, Snabo in Timesplitters: Future Perfect (I killed Snabo three times in one match one time. Take that, you shotgun monkey no-reloading wall-clipping bastard!), the stat-padding bastards who comprise the upper echelons of Battlefield 2's chain of command and all the guys on EVE's most wanted list who have "1943" as their date they started training, I don't think there's any way to have a leaderboard with any real value.

Your idea, which I dislike, and EVE's system, which I enjoy, are actually quite similar, as you've noticed. I've been giving it some thought as this thread has advanced, and I have a theory about why I can stomach big losses in EVE (some random pirate just blew up my only ore hauler. No ransom request, no "Yer money or yer ship," no nothing. Just a warp scrambler and a hail of bullets. Bitch.) but find the notion of permadeath in a fantasy-type MMO (and aren't they all fantasy-type MMOs when we imagine them?) totally unpalatable.

The difference is that in EVE, the ship is the gamepiece. It's where all the equipment is mounted, where all the bonuses come from, and it's your instrument of destruction, creation and advancement. Yet it is not your avatar. It isn't your identity in the game. You can meet someone after not seeing them for weeks or months, and they'll have an entirely new set of properties and functions, having totally switched "classes" from a mission-running hauler to a PvP combatant, and you'll say, "Hey, buddy! Nice ship, do you have tech 2 drones in that thing?" With the permanent loss of the ship, you've got to build another one, call it something like "Pheonix III" and set about exacting vengeance (I blew that pirate up with my fighter, and chased her pod out of the system).

But in other MMOs, where your vehicle IS your character, its loss severs your tie to the game. Even if you start at 80% or 100% strength, you have lost your identity. You roll up with a mage called "Ascension584" and your buddies see the little icon by your name, and look you up and say, "Oh, hey man, I see you are the same player that once was OrcHewer43, did you lose that guy or is this an alt?" Too awkward, too clumsy, too disconcerting. It hurts immersion.

Besides, with all the characters getting created and replaced, all the good names would be totally taken up, and you'll wind up having to call yourself "ErdricSonOfWilhelmIIIJr.384958372"

If the death of the character accomplishes nothing, then it's a hassle that could be avoided by just resurrecting them. Go ahead and dock them some stats, and maybe give them a chance to rearrange some of their attribute points, with a penalty.

I've always been a huge fan of the romantic notion of dying in a blaze of glory, so permadeath as part of a complex reward for a huge mission sppeals to me enormously, but once players start getting there, it'll be an endless parade of lemmings to jump off that cliff and drown the demon king in your blood, so the noble gesture and the "permadeath" will just be another stepping-stone in the endless staircase, another spoke on the wheel of grind, another datum on the spreadsheet of character optimization.

Edit: Finally fixed those pesky quote tags. Sorry everyone.

[Edited by - Iron Chef Carnage on March 17, 2006 3:14:04 AM]

I have a question for you, OP. What happens if a character dies twice in quick sucession? For example, someone has that +3 bonus to some skill and they die. They make a new character with +1 in that skill. What happens if this new character dies? Has the player 'unlocked' the +1 in the skill(similiar to Guild Wars)? Does the player loose all bonuses to that skill?

Just something to think about before you cash in that 1,000,000 dollars.

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Original post by Ezbez I have a question for you, OP. What happens if a character dies twice in quick sucession? For example, someone has that +3 bonus to some skill and they die. They make a new character with +1 in that skill. What happens if this new character dies? Has the player 'unlocked' the +1 in the skill(similiar to Guild Wars)? Does the player loose all bonuses to that skill? Just something to think about before you cash in that 1,000,000 dollars.

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Original post by abstractimmersion And perhaps I haven't made myself totally clear: once the player gets a character creation bonus (like, say, 50% of all mage spells learned), that bonus can NEVER be taken away from him so long as he's a subscriber. After he's gotten a character with 60% learned, he will always have the option of creating one with 50% mage spells learned. (and probably some bonuses to intelligence, magic attack, character level, or whatever)

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage As to entering lost characters into the "Hall of Fame", is there any game in existence where the top 500 slots of the leaderboard aren't hackers and exploiters?

I wasn't actually talking about a server-wide or game-wide leaderboard, just some data in the account letting the player look at his past characters.

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The difference is that in EVE, the ship is the gamepiece. It's where all the equipment is mounted, where all the bonuses come from, and it's your instrument of destruction, creation and advancement. Yet it is not your avatar. It isn't your identity in the game. You can meet someone after not seeing them for weeks or months, and they'll have an entirely new set of properties and functions, having totally switched "classes" from a mission-running hauler to a PvP combatant, and you'll say, "Hey, buddy! Nice ship, do you have tech 2 drones in that thing?" With the permanent loss of the ship, you've got to build another one, call it something like "Pheonix III" and set about exacting vengeance (I blew that pirate up with my fighter, and chased her pod out of the system). But in other MMOs, where your vehicle IS your character, its loss severs your tie to the game. Even if you start at 80% or 100% strength, you have lost your identity. You roll up with a mage called "Ascension584" and your buddies see the little icon by your name, and look you up and say, "Oh, hey man, I see you are the same player that once was OrcHewer43, did you lose that guy or is this an alt?" Too awkward, too clumsy, too disconcerting. It hurts immersion. Besides, with all the characters getting created and replaced, all the good names would be totally taken up, and you'll wind up having to call yourself "ErdricSonOfWilhelmIIIJr.384958372"

Well, you wouldn't necessarily have to have unique character names. Especially if you're going to be losing a few, it might not be a good idea.

I see what you're saying...but I guess that's part of the penalty here. And like I said, nothing is really stopping a guy from losing Roland the paladin and then starting back out as Roland the paladin at 80% strength.

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Original post by robert4818 My idea on permadeath: Let it be the players choice. Put it at the end of a high level end-game type of epic quest. At the end of it give the player a choice. A. Complete quest normally, get some uber cool item. Minor Game story advancement. B. Valiently Sacrifice thier characters. Opening up special options/classes/races etc for the account, AND placing the original Characters name in the games history as having done something truly memorable. And give the player the ability to link thier new character to thier old one (I.E. Son of ____)

i love your idea

or maybe a sense of heaven, that players could continue on in realms beyond the real world, and visit it from time to time, and maybe earn their way back into the real world, with 1. a spritual character and 2. a real world one.

I guess no one here has played D&D! Jeez!

If you didn't play with a group of panzies permadeath really was an issue so you always had to be smart about what you did. When you did something risky and heroic you felt good about yourself.

Heck I remember scouting out a cave near a town (in my friend's campaign). We were 2 fighters and we ended up being ambushed by 25 orcs. The DM made it CLEAR that we were outnumbered and he wanted us to run and get some reinforcements. You know, the whole "You feel overwhelmed".

We wouldn't have it.

Instead we placed ourselves in a strategic position where we could only take on a few of them at a time (without being flanked) and we told the orcs to "bring it on". The DM was annoyed and actually took it OOC to say: "You guys realize that I won't pity you during this battle and that I will kill you if you lose."

Note that this wasn't a mindless bot we were fighting against, these were orcs played by a human being so they changed their strategies as their bodies piled up. Imagine how freakin' awesome it was when we took them all out. We piled up all the weaponary and armed the village we were protecting, we saved the day.

Now THAT is the appeal of permadeath. I'd rather play a game where people's reasons to not do a quest is because they fear dying.

"Want to go to the fortress of doom?"
"I really can't, I'm too scared."

instead of

"Want to go to the fortress of doom?"
"Man, that's like a 2 hour quest, nevermind."

Talk about seperating the boys from the men :P

edit: I'm the run on sentence king!