Reality check please: Basic concept: RPG-like advancement based upon player/character motivation, rather than traditional kill x monsters, practice skills x times methods. Basically, a characters advancement (improvement of skills/gaining of traits) would be tied in to a driving motivation that would somehow be selected by the player. As they draw nearer to the goal that they have set (for example, a greedy character would advance by gaining more wealth, a character driven by revenge would advance by thwarting their nemesis, etc) they will grow more skillful. Skills that apply more directly to the driving motivation will grow more quickly (for example, haggling/thievery skills for the greedy character). This could possibly work in conjunction with a "class" but I was seeing this more as a replacement. The driving motivation could be selected in one of a number of ways - a flat question: "What motivates you?", a little psychology test (Ultima IV?), or even more subtle - it could be based on initial gameplay. Perhaps the opening area could be a form of test, and the decisions made by the player would affect them for the rest of the game??? AI characters could work on the same motivation system, whether as teammates (perhaps you would have to keep an eye on a teammate with less than noble motivations) or other major characters, as long as the motivation pool were large/varied enough. Some motivations would have to be good/noble/selfless, some bad/ruthless/selfish, and some inbetween. Possible motivations: Greed, Revenge, Power, Justice, Spiritual Enlightenment, etc... Possible Problems: Balancing a wide variety of advancement conditions/skill sets/gameplay formats. Generating a story for each motivation, or tying each motivation into a story may be difficult. Could confuse players - "I gained skills last game by doing this, now I don''t" Possible Advantages: Different forms of gameplay, based on what the player {hopefully} wants. Motivations seem to tie in at a deeper level, not the character is a "thief", but why does the character steal? Kind of sketchy, but any thoughts? Has this been discussed/done before? Have I lost my mind? -pwd

Hmmn, but (unless I am miss interpreting your meaning) if you do lots of theving, you would get practice at being a thief, rathier than getting practice at being gready. However, getting the game to work out the player/charcter''s motivation could make for a nice way to generate stories.

Oh, and I''d just make another check to make sure you havn''t lost your mind

ANDREW RUSSELL STUDIOS

pwd,
This is very clever. I don''t think I have really thought of this one. Are you thinking that the game is won according to when the player has attained the ulimate "level" of their goal?

i.e. The player selects wealth. When the attain X gold pieces they win?



"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
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quote: Original post by Nazrix

Are you thinking that the game is won according to when the player has attained the ulimate "level" of their goal?

i.e. The player selects wealth. When the attain X gold pieces they win?

I was thinking that this would be one of the victory conditions. The player could choose to continue playing, to tie up any loose ends if they wish, but they would have already met their primary goal. There could also be a "total-winner" victory condition along the lines of world/galactic domination.

I was thinking of implementing this in multi-player. You''ve met your personal goal, so you can choose to retire permanently, or you can stick around and help out your teammates. Also, this could complicate team play when everyone is out for their own goals - so one member may be wanting to do X to achieve their goal, but doing so might go against another members motivations. Finding a team that compliments your motivations would be a key element. For example, a greedy character would not want to be on a team with another greedy character, as there would be bickering when it came to sharing the wealth, or a character that was driven by the Justice motivation might limit posibilities for obtaining wealth (although trading, etc would still be possible), but a character driven by revenge might be a good choice - that character won''t care about the money as long as what the team is doing will help against his nemesis...

Sort of a way of tying "role-playing" into the game mechanics. Characters would be rewarded for playing their role.

pwd,
Yes, I like it. You bring up a very interesting point about role-playing. Role-playing is too often seen as characters needing to play a certain character type (wizard, fighter, etc), but it's much more appropriate to have a character play a certain personality type (greedy, kind, hostile, etc).

Nice thinking




"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on January 24, 2001 10:16:21 AM

this is very interesting i must say. this would be very good in an MMRPG. people tend 2 play the way they feel anyway, so why not let ur character feel that way too and actually benefit from it?


--I don''t judge, I just observe

Stuck in the Bush''s, Florida

quote: Original post by Andrew Russell

Hmmn, but (unless I am miss interpreting your meaning) if you do lots of theving, you would get practice at being a thief, rathier than getting practice at being gready. However, getting the game to work out the player/charcter''s motivation could make for a nice way to generate stories.

Still need to hammer out the mechanics

Basically, the way I''m looking at it: If you do a lot of thievery (to obtain wealth), you would be working towards your goal of wealth. You may be more motivated to learn thievery for obvious reasons, but you could also go about it in other ways: You could go about it by trading/mercantilism, or by going around town, beating people up and stealing their lunch money. How you go about obtaining the wealth is not as important, as the fact that you are doing it... That is, you could be a thief, a merchant, or the school yard bully because you''re greedy. Perhaps you would gain a certain amount of skill points when you reach various milestones, which through one way or another (practice, training, or simple assignment) would be transferred to the skills of your choice (or the ones you are using) - perhaps with certain skills getting a bonus when points are transferred.

A character with the goal of revenge, could also gain from a little thievery, more subtly thwarting their nemesis, stealing vital plans, etc. Or they could go the more vigilante route, taking on their nemesis''s minions toe to toe.

Some of these motivations may be hard to track...

The exact system/mechanics would have to be fleshed out to be usable, and to be reasonably logical (if logic would actually help - abstraction may be put to good use in this case)

-pwd

pwd,
Yes this makes tons of sense. It''s not the actual system, so much as the philosophy behind it.

Allow me the leisure to try and talk about reality a moment. I know, I know...games aren''t supposed to be real...blah, blah, blah...but reality is a good place to start.

Although, there is the issue of people are not usually very clear-cut. People may be greedy in once situation, and generous in another.

Also, people tend to perform a profession out of interest as well as monetary gain. For instance, I am studying computer science mostly because I find it interesting. The monetary gain is part of it, yes, but I could just as easily choose another profession if money was the only motivation.

I''m just brainstorming here, but perhaps another option besides one clear-cut motivation would be better. Perhaps the player could give some sort of value of what things are more important to the character. So, the character may be greedy foremost, but still generous often as well. Although generous would have a lower value. Sorry if this makes no sense. It''s all off the top of my head





"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Nazrix,

I could not agree with you more. If money were my only motivation, I would be a very different person. And I''d be writing database software, not games

I''ve probably been mixing implementation with philosophy to this point, so I''ll try to seperate them - they will ultimately have to merge at some point, but I''m probably getting ahead of myself.

Myths and Legends are full of heros and villains with distorted personalities. Perhaps this is not a good excuse to be designing characters as caricatures, but I think the ultimate purpose of this idea is to give a player''s character (excuse the pun) more character - to give the player a nudge to identify with their avatar at a deeper level...

Now, what makes the character different from the many others that are leading normal lives, not out there risking their necks going on adventures? I view this as being the reasoning to giving a character a "driving motivation", it is what caused the character to give up a more normal life as a farmer, shopkeeper, whatever. Now, I''m hoping that the player could be trusted to self-regulate themselves to some degree, and flesh out their character''s personality to some greater degree, with the system/mechanics being a sort of "hint". A character attempting to power-max on this system would probably come out as being quite insane, obsessing on their motivation.

I see there being many paths to a goal - with the way that a character got to their goal not being as important as the fact that they achieved, or are working towards it. A player wishing to win quickly to get their name on the scorecard would probably choose the quickest path to their goal, but a player seeking a deeper experience could follow one of the many other paths. Sort of how we choose a profession. We all want money, but some more than others. This will affect the career decisions of people who want to achieve this goal quickly more than it will the rest of us.

AI characters would definately have other factors that affect their behaviour, not just a primary motivation.

Perhaps the use of greed and generosity in the argument for multiple motivations is a little confusing. I am taking it that you mean generosity when it will not cost money - for example, aiding a blind person across a busy street. Multiple motivations that oppose each other would probably be too difficult to track in an implementation.

Hmmm, have you ever taken a "Myers-Briggs" test (If I remember the name correctly). This test attempts to codify a persons personality into 4 either/or categories (for example, are you introverted or extroverted) and gives a rating for each of the values. Perhaps a system along those lines could work - are you greedy or generous, and how much so? The rating at that point could then be used as a modifier to the advancement potential of various achievements: obtaining a greedy achievement would benefit a very greedy character more than an only mildly greedy character, and could possibly be mildly detrimental to a generous character. I could see this working.

Would this be fun? Would it be confusing? Would this lead to a deeper/different experience, as opposed to more traditional game mechanics/systems?

-pwd

pwd,
Well, when I said someone could be generous sometimes and selfish others I basically meant that people are just not that simple. People are more round than that. Few people are 100% any personality type, however, it is more possible to put someone in one group or another than I''d like to admit to myself. I like thinking that people are capable of a wide variety of options.

That''s one thing about game design, is that it can sometimes teach us about ourselves.

I do indeed think this is an interesting idea. When you say "advancement" when they adhere to the selected personality type, what are you thinking? Better at skills and such?

This is almost an extention of the alignment system in AD&D I suppose. Of course, that was about how much you abide the law and how good/bad you are. This would be even deeper. Although with the alignment system, you weren''t so much rewarded for following your alignment, but punished for violating it.





"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.