For quite a while now, I have been very sure that class systems work much better for RPGs in general. It allows for a player to mix & match different skills to create a more custom character. However, I was thinking that a class system may not be so evil as I once thought. Mind you I am not assuming that experience-based systems are coming into play here. I am thinking more along the lines of when you choose a class a group of skills are selected that belong to that class. The advantage is that we as designers can make a more balanced game by using classes. For instance, let's say there's a thief class. The thief class contains a stealth skill, pick lock skill, and maybe a hiding skill. Then a mage class has skills pertaining to casting spells such as offensive, illusion, etc. Now, if there wasn't a class system, only a skill system, perhaps the player will pick hiding and stealth and the illusion skill. Now the player can use illusions for hiding plus when whatever constraints are put on the magic system, they can go back to their hiding & stealth which may make the player undectible. We can also create a more "consistant" grouping of skills that sort of compliment each other better and create an appropriate character concept. There is the Daggerfall approach where you can let the player make a custom class, or use the many classes that the designers came up with. That just may be the best solution. With a custom skill system, I realize that the balance comes in where the player will have not picked many other skills, so they may suck at melee or something. I guess my point is, are classes just an excuse for bad design or do you think they can be okay? "All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. Edited by - Nazrix on January 22, 2001 1:28:15 AM

I don''t remember much about Daggerfall, but I''ve seen other CRPG''s, and the ones that seemed the best were the hybrids - you choose a class, get a set of skills to start with, then get to add additional skills as you play.

Personally, I''d like to do away with classes - they are unrealistic and boring. I want to start the game as a plain old vanilla character, and add the skills or upgrade my skills as I choose. You could always give the player some templates to choose in order to make it quicker for them to jump into the game the first time. But in general, I''d like to see you build your character DURING the game, not BEFORE the game. Which means that you would do little tweaking of your character before starting to play the game.

It does raise an interesting game design problem, though, as suggested. How can we design situations so that the player who is poor at combat will do well in a situation where combat is required, for instance?

Well, first I would want to have a few options as a player. If I suck at combat, then give me some way else out of this mess - don''t force me into combat. For instance, in the game I''m working on we plan on allowing the player to have crew members with skill sets. One of these skills might be xeno communications. In this case, perhaps one way out of an encounter is to use that skill to my advantage - either to talk my way out of the encounter or fool the enemy into thinking I am more powerful than I am. Another way out of the mess might be to hire other ships to help guard me while I travel about the galaxy trading. Let them be skillful at combat - I''m a trader, not a fighter.

Probably got off on a tangent back there, but there''s my two cents.

Daggerfall didn't let you add skills during the game. That is a great idea though. I thought about that too, but I sort of dismissed the idea. Although, now it is sounding pretty good.

I agree wholeheartedly that there should be more ways out of thing than just boring combat. I'm planning on giving characters many options to complete a mission/quest. The basic concept is that the quest engine will only care that the player succeeds not how . So, when you have to retrieve an item from some guarded building, it only cares that you get that item. So, whether you battle your way, sneak your way, find a secret passage, talk your way, it all ends w/ you getting the item and that's all that matters as far as success of that mission is concerned.


I tend to have the philosophy of give the player the components of the game and let them use their creativity to get through situations. So, to me, it's okay if they perhaps pick combinations of skills that may not work as well. They can always start again, or play the game with a couple different characters to see what they like best.

So, essentially, I agree w/ you, but it was worth bringing up, right?





"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Edited by - Nazrix on January 22, 2001 2:01:13 AM

"If you give people the right to make a choice, a consequence is that they sometimes make the wrong one." -?

Don''t remember who said that, but it totally applies here. Classes may be unrealistic, but as you noted they''re good for balancing. With a skill based system, there''s nothing to prevent the player from maxing out on a handful of skills. If you allow something like this, then you need to be sure the player can play successfully with this imbalance.

I guess the only way to avoid this would be to somehow ensure that every major goal is obtainable with every skill. This becomes weird if you have extraneous skills like cooking or fishing. How is the Cooking / Sewing / Typing hero going to defeat that Ogre Mage for the end game?

(This isn''t an endorsement for classes, just a warning about skills, btw)

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Now, in a MMORPG, it seems to me that this becomes less of an issue, because if they suck at combat and they can't solve a quest in the game because of it, they move on to the next quest (there is no "ending" to the game, per se) or build up their skills until they CAN solve the quest.

Edited by - Mandrake2112 on January 22, 2001 9:18:41 AM

ok.. ignoring all other posts for now.. i''ll respond to your main post there Naz.
What i see is that Classes have been badly implimented. Even in AD&D you can choose to be a "kit" class. Not a generic thief.. but perhaps an assain. Then you specialize in stealth and poisoned daggers and getting away. Or you could be more like a spy. Strictly stealth and listening.
Or as a ranger you could be a wilderness, beastmaster, or some other such thing. I believe 3rd edition D&D rules are calling these "prestige" classes. In my opinion, this is the thing that CRPGs or MMORPGs (in a much bigger way.. since it gets multiplied 300 times over fast) are WAY lacking. In order to be a mage, and advance a level, ALL mages must get X ammount of skills. There''s no variation, and there''s no specialization. The system i''ve come up with allows for a LOT more than this, without even requiring specialized classes. Of course.. i can''t tell you what this is, but you''ll have a chance to play it.. someday Needless to say, it''s the answer to all my years of personal frustration with games not allowing better classes and more specialized classes.
True that some say you can have "5 ranks of weapon skill" meaning any weapon.. but usually that''s moot.. cause it''s things like magic or such that gets pushed on the backburner. So.. i believe classes CAN be good.. and skills are perfectly capable of being good. Skills are just easier to get away with as a developer without having to think, and still allowing people to get more personalized characters without having to have some stupid "minimum" requirements that''re generic in order to actually gain a level and gain some new power. Who says a level in a guild gives you more power? doesn''t a level in a skill give you more power with the skill? True.. guilds might not teach you certain things.. but.. does that mean you can''t learn anything without the guild? if so.. then how did the guild get started?!

J

i think you have to be careful in the design if u use classes. if u allow a player to be a theif with stealth skills, u must b sure that all objectives can be completed w/ those skills. if that player chooses to avoid combat a lot, then combat skills will be low. so just as Wavinator said about balance, i think it applies either way u go. the benefit i c of skills over classes is w/ skills, the player can experience the world and make appropriate decisions as to what skills to use or raise. like someone else said, i guess it''s a lazy way out. but the classes may limit player involvment because of the set number of possibilities. that''s my 2 cents for now.(as if anyone cares)

I don''t judge, I just observe

Niphty,
Yes, I agree that classes could be good, but haven''t been executed well at all.


Dynamnite,
yes, good point. I sort of assumed that a game w/ use of such classes would allow for characters to get past situations in more than one way. That''s what I plan to do.



"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Naz,
as long as u do that, then ur class system is a good idea IMO. but are u gonna allow for multi-classing or cross-classing? can a person be a thief and decide to practice magic? of course they will have a harder road along the magic road since they have no attunement 4 it, but can they attempt it?


--I don''t judge, I just observe

Dynamite,

If I were to use such a system, then yes I think that someone who initially chose a thief should be able to take up magic but it would be a harder road.

I suppose if I were to use this system, the use of classes would just sort of help the player choose skills that compliment each other initially and create a more appropriate character.

It would be used to simulate the character learning appropriate skills to go toward a certain "type" of character. Some classes may share skills with other classes too.

Just an idea though...


P.S. I noticed that you're from FL. Just out of curiousity, what city? I'm near Orlando



"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on January 23, 2001 5:20:27 PM