It amazes me how many people come up to the forums with an idea, and programming knowledge, but no plan or way to get there. This is why I'm posting this, so people can see what I believe is a good system from going from the dream to the finished project. I'm myself am actually a Boy Scout, and I have gone through many leadership training courses. One of these is known as White Stag, which I am currently on staff for so I can give back what I have learned to other people. One of the points they teach us is on goals. There are simply three levels to this: 1. The Dream - you want to do something, say create an MMORPG 2. The Goal - the way you want to accomplish this dream, say you want to use C++, get this done in 5 years or less, make it a hobby project. You're setting the parameters. 3. The Plan - the way you want to accomplish your goals. This is where many tutorials over the internet come in. They have many different ways and ideas on how to accomplish a goal. For example, create a vertux buffer, draw a concept character, create a window, find bugs. The problem I believe is that many people have a dream and expect the plan to reside somewhere out there on the internet. However, the problem with this is that they're skipping a step. They're skipping goals for there project, and without them, many people often don't finish a project or never get it started. This is due to a lack of planning, and that is a common mistake many make. Then we enter the realm of making the plan happen. There are some people who are better at designing than actually working the project out, and vice versa. I'm better at coming up with ideas, but I'm also fairly good at working with a plan. As much as they're both important, you must realize that you need to work on the project for it to happen, it doesn't happen itself. There must be a balance, and each part is pretty much half and half. I conclude with this: Get a work ethic, get an plan of what you want to do in life. Learn patience, good communication, and good social skills. You'll feel more confident, better, and be more effective in a group. Ask questions, you have two ears and one mouth for a reason! But many people have spoken on the web before, so try to find that too! Any comments/suggestions/rants would be cool. I thought this fit in Game Design well, but it might work better in the Lounge. [Edited by - dbzprogrammer on February 15, 2006 3:03:53 PM]

Boy Scout and Software Engineering isn't really 2 of the same.

Software Engineering:

stage 1 -Envisioning (OH WOW YEAH!!!)
stage 2 -Feasibility Study (MMORPG dies here)

Quote:

Original post by Takaloy Boy Scout and Software Engineering isn't really 2 of the same. Software Engineering: stage 1 -Envisioning (OH WOW YEAH!!!) stage 2 -Feasibility Study (MMORPG dies here)

Part of the plan could be worker your way up the gaming ladder; pong, tetris, tile based 2d zelda game, small group project fps(non-commercial), then joining a team.

Quote:

Original post by Takaloy Boy Scout and Software Engineering isn't really 2 of the same. Software Engineering: stage 1 -Envisioning (OH WOW YEAH!!!) stage 2 -Feasibility Study (MMORPG dies here)

I think you missed the simple point that this "theory" is a general application, and many people new people here seem to miss it. Don't tell me you've never seen a post saying "Give me something to do!"

This system is far too generalized. It works for very trivial tasks (making a pizza, going to the store...) but it does not scale to large projects. The problem is it is generalized to "fit" a wide variety of cases, and by being generalized, it is stripped of any useful detail. This doesn't teach anyone how to choose dreams, or how to outline goals, or how to make plans. Without those skills, no high-level feel-good philosophy is going to work.

A lot of self-help literature uses similar models: just plug your life into this magic equation, and you'll get success! This is, for the most part, psychological bunk. Those who can acheive success by such methods almost invariably have the skills to acheive success anyways. Unless you address root causes, specific issues, and real skills, all you've got is a seminar.

The Dream-Goal-Plan system (and many other similar systems, like Intention-Actualization, which seems to be popular these days) is great for getting people off of the ground and into motion. But these systems don't really work for much else besides motivation to try things; if you don't actually have the skills to do the stuff, these systems don't give you those skills. People who post things like "I'm gonna make a huge MMORPG" don't need motivational systems like this; they need actual planning skills. The reason so many upstart projects fail is that people don't know how to set up goals and plans. They're told repeatedly to do so, and maybe even given some rickety and overgeneralized plans to work from, but in the end, these things are not enough. If someone doesn't have the planning skills to begin with, they can't be given them by a couple of short posts on a forum, no matter how well-meaning those posts are.


It's a very worthy effort, and with the experience you've had it isn't a bad guess at the root of the problem. But the real problem - and the real challenges of large tasks, game development and otherwise - is much more complex. It'd be very nice if we could make people superb planners in three simple steps, but it just doesn't work that way. Even the most experienced, battle-hardened planners fail to foresee things.

The key is to know how to plan, and to know how to adjust plans when the unforseen happens. Some of that is innate talent, but most of it is just plain experience - both as a planner, and a follower of existing plans.

to add to what ApochPiQ said, huge games like MMORPG that involves more than 5 person interaction isn't an art, it is a business (regardless if it's meant to be profitable or open source). The first thing you have to take into consideration is if the project is feasible.


BUT BUT BUT, anyone who has a dream and determination of making a MMORPG will probably suceed. But this is only due to the fact that computer technology & programming language grows at an exponential rate, at in 10 years time (maybe less) it'd probably take a 10 year old kid 5 days to complete a game of WoW's level.

Quote:

Original post by ApochPiQ This system is far too generalized. It works for very trivial tasks (making a pizza, going to the store...) but it does not scale to large projects. The problem is it is generalized to "fit" a wide variety of cases, and by being generalized, it is stripped of any useful detail. This doesn't teach anyone how to choose dreams, or how to outline goals, or how to make plans. Without those skills, no high-level feel-good philosophy is going to work. A lot of self-help literature uses similar models: just plug your life into this magic equation, and you'll get success! This is, for the most part, psychological bunk. Those who can acheive success by such methods almost invariably have the skills to acheive success anyways. Unless you address root causes, specific issues, and real skills, all you've got is a seminar. The Dream-Goal-Plan system (and many other similar systems, like Intention-Actualization, which seems to be popular these days) is great for getting people off of the ground and into motion. But these systems don't really work for much else besides motivation to try things; if you don't actually have the skills to do the stuff, these systems don't give you those skills. People who post things like "I'm gonna make a huge MMORPG" don't need motivational systems like this; they need actual planning skills. The reason so many upstart projects fail is that people don't know how to set up goals and plans. They're told repeatedly to do so, and maybe even given some rickety and overgeneralized plans to work from, but in the end, these things are not enough. If someone doesn't have the planning skills to begin with, they can't be given them by a couple of short posts on a forum, no matter how well-meaning those posts are. It's a very worthy effort, and with the experience you've had it isn't a bad guess at the root of the problem. But the real problem - and the real challenges of large tasks, game development and otherwise - is much more complex. It'd be very nice if we could make people superb planners in three simple steps, but it just doesn't work that way. Even the most experienced, battle-hardened planners fail to foresee things. The key is to know how to plan, and to know how to adjust plans when the unforseen happens. Some of that is innate talent, but most of it is just plain experience - both as a planner, and a follower of existing plans.

This is very true...

My main goal was to make a point, a reference post. No, you really can't build a game straight off this, but it gets the mindset right. Many people come up saying they want to make some great game, but they have no idea where to go off that. Some decide to work up to it by creating several smaller games/projects, others just charge at it.

I wish I could write an in-depth book on going from the idea to the product in game development, and that I could go in-depth more here. But I'm a student, I'm busy, and I obviousely wouldn't be able to get something good do to my skill level. I just wanted to discuss this with everyone, and get comments like yours Apoch and Takaloy.

(BTW, I'm 15)