(note i do not like the shift key) in all the job requirements i've seen from a game company they want you to have at least x years of programming exerience and x amount of projects you've worked on. how are you ever suppose to work on a project if all companies want you to have already worked on one? do game companies take into considerations unpublished projects? would a game you've created by yourself be considered? it's pretty much a given that a company is going to require you to know c++; however, i've seen many people write that experiance in more then one language is extreamly beneficial. is this true, and if so then why do i never see " - experaince in more then one language is a plus" on the requirements? are compiled languages that create exe's the only beneficial languages? i know x/html, css, php, mysql, etc... but those are web based languages. are those languages ever going to come in handy when i'm trying to get a job? what about other languages like spanish and french, i know they have absolutely nothing to do with game programming, but i'm constantly told, "the bilingual person will get the job". does this have any effect at all in the programming world? finally what majors would i benefit the most from? i plan on majoring in mathematics; i've heard that helps with graphics programming. i'll also have a minor in spanish (relevent?), and perhaps computer science, depending on how boring that actually is. i don't plan on ever taking a c++ class in college, simply because no companies ever require a major in c++ programming, just "experience".

lots of times, when they say 'we want x years of experience", they are doing that to filter out the people with no experience AT ALL and people that arent serious about getting the job. however, its still a problem for people with no experience. i just mentioned to someone else about resumes in the beginners forum, but this is what i did when i got my first programming job. on my resume, instead of showing what i did when i was at circuit city and winn dixie, i emphasized my personal projects and school projects. in doing so, it shows the employer (lets say its a web company) "hey, this guy hasnt worked for someone, but according to his resume, he has setup a web app with a 3 tier architecture for his own website using css/php/struts/jsp/whatever, lets bring him in and talk to him because he can do what we are looking for."

Quote: in all the job requirements i've seen from a game company they want you to have at least x years of programming exerience and x amount of projects you've worked on.

And sometimes, companies ask for 5 years of experience in a technology that has only existed for 2 years. Welcome to the job market.

Quote: How are you ever suppose to work on a project if all companies want you to have already worked on one?

Sometimes, junior positions are available. Internships are also useful. As is freelance work.

Quote: do game companies take into considerations unpublished projects? would a game you've created by yourself be considered?

On a case-by-case basis, obviously. Polish your portfolio.

Quote: however, i've seen many people write that experiance in more then one language is extreamly beneficial. is this true,

There is a difference between learning to program and learning a programming language. Knowing multiple languages gives you a better outlook on how to solve problems.

Quote: why do i never see " - experaince in more then one language is a plus" on the requirements?

Because they probably won't need you to write code in seven different languages. Their requirement is in a good programmer, not a programmer proficient in multiple languages.

Quote: are compiled languages that create exe's the only beneficial languages?

No.

Quote: i know x/html, css, php, mysql, etc... but those are web based languages. are those languages ever going to come in handy when i'm trying to get a job?

Did learning them teach you anything about programming in general?

Quote: what about other languages like spanish and french, i know they have absolutely nothing to do with game programming, but i'm constantly told, "the bilingual person will get the job".

Depends on what the job is, and where.

Quote: finally what majors would i benefit the most from?

If you want to be a programmer, you'll need a Computer Science major. Some schools offer Software Engineering. Computer Engineering, while hardware-oriented, may qualify, too.

Quote: i plan on majoring in mathematics;

Majoring in math is way overkill if you want to be a programmer. The math classes required of all Engineering majors are largely sufficient.

Quote: i've heard that helps with graphics programming.

Graphics benefit from geometry and linear algebra knowledge. Game programming also benefits from various mechanics classes (solid, fluid, continuum...), numerical methods and discrete math.

Quote: i'll also have a minor in spanish (relevent?)

Not directly relevant, no. While just taking a class or two is mostly pointless (that's insufficient to acquire a foreign language), I'm not sure a minor in Spanish is necessary. But then again, I don't know what are the requirements for a Spanish minor. Just make sure you take enough language classes.

Quote: and perhaps computer science, depending on how boring that actually is.

If computer science bores you, you should pick another career. If you don't study algorithms, OS and programming language fundamentals or theory of computation, you'll only ever be a mediocre programmer.

Quote: i don't plan on ever taking a c++ class in college, simply because no companies ever require a major in c++ programming, just "experience".

There is no such thing as a "major in C++ programming". Programming languages are tools, not an end in and of themselves. You might get a major in carpentry, but not in "using a hammer".
In any case, you won't be able to get that CS minor (much less a CS major) without taking programming classes... which might not even be in C++ (Java is popular, some schools teach Scheme, Haskell, ML or some other functional language...)

First off, learn to use the shift key. Something like 'I don't like the shift key' would put you in the no call pile right off the bat. I don't have time to deal with Prima Donnas. Trust me, when going through x number of resumes I'm looking for reasons not to call someone.

Second just learn all you can. An intro course to c++ might be useful to get you started, but courses won't teach it to you. What you want to take in school is classes on algorithms, data structures, and problem solving.

A math degree can be very good to get, especially if you are very self motivated in the programming areas. If you need a bit more hand holding getting a degree in CS with a minor in math may be a better choice.

Moving this to Business, where it may potentially find a happier home.

The years of experience requirements for many jobs is a way to try to weed out the newbies and attempt to get some people that have at least made it past the 'break-in' period and are serious about the work. If you can demonstrate proficiency in the areas that the position requires then often the years of experience can be waived. It's not easy to prove proficiency. Best advice I could give is to have a serious side project that you put alot of spare time in that will go with resume submissions. If you're a graphics programmer you should have some impressive tech demos of various graphics techniques, an AI programmer might have made a bot for a major game, etc...

X years of experience isn't carved in stone, don't let it stop you from applying. Often times, schooling can be reasonably applied to your resume as experience, provided you spent a decent amount of time on various coding projects.

I only had to take two more classes in my CS course to obtain my math minor. Of course they were both graduate level math courses, but that should show you the level of math already covered by engineering. if you only had a math degree I definately would not hire you as a programmer, because every math major I have ever encountered does not know how to program anything remotely beyond hello world (if that). When they need to code something they break down totally and loose all of thier problem solving skills that could be applied. They do usually know how to use matlab or mathmatica, which helps but definiately does not encompass any of the CS concepts besides MAYBE: conditionals, loops, and variables. Which you can learn in two hours reading a CS book. Usually they are required to take a C course that they sweep under the rug because it is a very simplified version of the CS major requirements. So the point Im trying to make is if you like math stick with it, but dont expect to get paid much as a software developer, just like I would not expect to get paid much at a math focused job. I might feel I know it, but there are just some advanced concepts I never learned in math, which is probably what I would need to succeed. If you do not totally focus on CS you will miss things like: engineering practices, tools, testing (more engineering), structures, algorthms, optimizations, languages, or the general problem solving techniques used in CS (although math problem solving will definitely help). As to computer graphics, they simply dont reach very far into math beyond linear algebra, vector math, geometry, and some calc. Numerical analysis is also useful as it addresses instability and advanced math to source code concepts. This was one of the graduate level classes that I took. I did notice that any code was given Matlab. Was preferred in Matlab and discussed in a matlab style. You could use other languages like C (but the teacher did not like it). I for one did my code in C because I wanted to truely understand what I implemented and not run on the backbone of Matlab's uber routines of magic. So yeah - as a programmer I would be totally baised against hireing a mathmitician to program just like a mathmitician would be biased against hiring a programmer to create and solve equations.

it seems kind of hostile in here. maybe i'm just taking things a little too seriously? either way i'm glad people are lending a hand and letting me in on some helpful tips/information.

Quote: and perhaps computer science, depending on how boring that actually is

i guess i shouldn't have said that. i definitely plan to get a minor at the very least in computer science. i said, "depending on how boring that actually is" because i've had two cousins that were going to be programmers (not game programmers) but decided they didn't want to because computer science was too boring for them. i'm still uncertain on what i want to major in, judging from the replies so far it seems that mathematics isn't really as critical as i thought it would be and computer science is much more important. if thats the case (which, now that i think of it, seems logical) then i will probably go that route.

(a little off topic)

as far as the "x amount of projects worked on". someone said that "side" projects are ok. can anyone else back that statement up? i've been working on a project for more then 3 years now and i'm glad to here that could be considered. does the broadness of your programming abilities help as much as having one real strong point? for isntance, i've been working on an online rpg. i have decent knowledge of networking, server/client management, database management, and general c++ programming. if sdl/allegro counts (doubtful), i have some graphics programming knowledge too. is that going to get me as far as if i were very skilled at simply network programming or graphics programming and had basically no other programming knowledge? i obviously plan to improve my programming skills, but i'd rather stay a jack of all trades more than become a master of one.

[Edited by - yahn on February 7, 2006 9:28:26 PM]

Quote: Original post by yahn
(note i do not like the shift key)

Well learn to use it regardless. There is nothing that puts an HR person off more than a lazy applicant.

Quote: in all the job requirements i've seen from a game company they want you to have at least x years of programming exerience and x amount of projects you've worked on.

Not all, just most. The reason for that is simple. You need a majority of experienced staff to get a project done on time and on budget. A team of inexperienced staff make too many mistakes. Because there are less beginers in each team there are less openings for people without experience.

Quote: how are you ever suppose to work on a project if all companies want you to have already worked on one?

You're not. Your supposed to apply for entry level positions instead.

Quote: do game companies take into considerations unpublished projects? would a game you've created by yourself be considered?

only if it was truly amazing. Other than that it would just be considered a portfolio piece.

Quote: if sdl/allegro counts (doubtful), i have some graphics programming knowledge too

Of course it counts. Every little bit does though how much varies. DirectX, for example is usually required as it's the monopoly graphic API of today's world. However, having experience with OpenGL, SDL, etc, is a plus, because it shows you've expiremented and taken many different approaches.
Graphics programming I think is more of the math and understanding of 3D, not just knowing how to use an API. It's obviously going to teach you something I'm not saying you didn't learn anything from it. But say there was a complete API that did everything for you. All you needed was to load some variables and call some functions. Like it built octrees for you, handled cubemaps, texturing and 2D effects, all lighting. So you'd say like drawLitTexturedPolygon(x, y, z) or something as a call and it was all done for you and you don't have to worry about how it locates it, textures it, lights its, calculates perspective etc. That's knowing how to use an API not graphics programming understanding they'd want you to know how that texturing is done and how to light polygons etc. However I don't think they'll get too in depth being you'll be using APIs like DirectX or OpenGL which has a lot of stuff that's built in that you don't have to worry about. Like things you'd have to do to make a game 10 years ago are built in and you don't really need to know how to program those core things too much just call a few functions.