To deal with the end game, or rather how to make the game scale for good players (both players who have gained skills in game, and those who are just really good) should not be an event like escape or a nuke - that simply means players will reach that point and need *another* end game scenario.

Instead tie it to the badges - in a normal MMORPG a high level player wouldn't be killing the same low level monsters, even though he could. Because he wants to level up, he'll be attacking higher level quests.

In the same vein, make it so the badges naturally require the player to venture into harder and harder areas of the city (from a design point of view, I'd seal off areas of the city [i.e. bridge across the river is destroyed] so that as the game progresses you can add new content - players wake up one day to see that one of the bridge piers has collapsed, creating a make shift bridge to the new area).

The most simple way would be "clear 50 zombies from the military base", though you could be a bit less transparent: you might need to kill or collect something only found in harder areas of the city.

On the issue of food, I'd say it is required. Remember that a major goal of this game is simply to stay alive (and is the most visible/important stat and leaderboard). If a player can stay alive simply by not getting killed by zombies/other players, they will simply try and run and hide. It won't be long before players find and start heavily abusing map "exploits" - places only a human player (or perhaps only a human player who knows how to) can get to. Players will then stay in these safe spots for as long as needed (botting the game without even needing a bot).

Food gives the player a goal, a specific action they need to take, that puts the player at risk. I'd suggest 3 gauges - liquid, protein and calories. Each type of food you can find provides either 1 or 2 of those, but never all 3.

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Original post by Michalson To deal with the end game, or rather how to make the game scale for good players (both players who have gained skills in game, and those who are just really good) should not be an event like escape or a nuke - that simply means players will reach that point and need *another* end game scenario.

True, I prefer very slow 'top level' plots that the players themselves barely affect.

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Instead tie it to the badges - in a normal MMORPG a high level player wouldn't be killing the same low level monsters, even though he could. Because he wants to level up, he'll be attacking higher level quests. In the same vein, make it so the badges naturally require the player to venture into harder and harder areas of the city (from a design point of view, I'd seal off areas of the city [i.e. bridge across the river is destroyed] so that as the game progresses you can add new content - players wake up one day to see that one of the bridge piers has collapsed, creating a make shift bridge to the new area).

Yes, geographical separation is always a good trick. :-)

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The most simple way would be "clear 50 zombies from the military base", though you could be a bit less transparent: you might need to kill or collect something only found in harder areas of the city. On the issue of food, I'd say it is required. Remember that a major goal of this game is simply to stay alive (and is the most visible/important stat and leaderboard). If a player can stay alive simply by not getting killed by zombies/other players, they will simply try and run and hide. It won't be long before players find and start heavily abusing map "exploits" - places only a human player (or perhaps only a human player who knows how to) can get to. Players will then stay in these safe spots for as long as needed (botting the game without even needing a bot). Food gives the player a goal, a specific action they need to take, that puts the player at risk. I'd suggest 3 gauges - liquid, protein and calories. Each type of food you can find provides either 1 or 2 of those, but never all 3.

Yeah, these are good. Having to keep eating or drinking keeps players moving, and makes certain enclave locations (like shopping malls) where such items spawn very desirable. Which ramps up the inter-enclave conflict. Nice.

It just occured to me that this situation is very similar to many others - a War of the Worlds theme with the zombies replaced by a few very hard to kill alien tripods springs to mind. It might be worth abstracting the 'survivor' concept and fast-play mechanics out into something that can be reused.

EDIT: Just had a look at the 'all flesh must be eaten' site. Gonna have to get me a copy of that.

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Original post by _winterdyne_ Um, no. It's a really bad design idea to put an end-game scenario into a persistent-game environment.[...]what would happen if one of our players were to escape the city? What's there? - only more content to be developed, and balanced.

No, no, no, there's no gameplay outside the zombie zone. When I say, "end-game scenario", I mean anything that ends a particular play-through. Getting eaten by zombies is an end-game scenario, as is getting ganked by another player or starving to death. The problem is that all the end-game scenarios so far have been your guy dying. I'm just looking for a way to "finish" a character that doesn't involve them being turned into a puddle of goo.

When you "make it", your character heads into the hills and is effectively dead. As a reward for doing this, the player gets a special badge, or might then be able to unlock the "Outsider" gametype, which is that character fighting to get back into the zombie city, armed with fresh supplies and equipment for the enclave. Maybe they find refugees, and your enclave then has a chance to send an escort out and procure more members. It's a high-risk, high-reward scenario, but it doesn't require more game content.

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Once they're at a point where they (and their group) can escape, there's little left to challenge them.

This is true, assuming that there's something to escape to. Maybe there's no food or potable water out there. There's no way to fortify a tent in the woods, so cities are probably the best place to be. You escape, you lose control of that character, and your enclave loses one member. Then there's a chance that that character will respawn later as an NPC mission with a big reward, like rare goods from a neighboring city.

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It seems most people are talking about skill based levelling[...]mechanic to keep these for the next incarnation of a character

I'd rather see characters be totally disposable. If veteran characters are much stronger than new ones, then every time you die it'll feel like you're back to square one. If veteran players are way tougher than newbies, then the game will inevitably turn into a grind, because you'll be forced to make "zones" or difficulty, or else either newbs will be useless or vets will be invincible. Don't make this a grind. Instead, let players specialize. Let them minmax their characters or go for a balance or whatever every time they play, but always have the same overall balance. Vet players might be able to minmax a little harder, but that just means they'll be happy to have a newb medic along for when their lockpicking superstar gets chewed on.

Again, take a page from Battlefield 2: Veteran Assault players can get the G3, which is a very effective rifle, but to get it they have to sacrifice the grenade launcher that the default gun comes with. It can be a tactical advantage, but it's not a pure upgrade.

Let some of the unlockable skills and classes kinda suck. If you work hard and get the right set of badges, you can become a hacker, but hacking isn't a terribly useful skill in a city that lacks electricity, so you won't be rocking any faces. But when a squad from your enclave finds a generator-powered bunker in the zombie-infested army base, they'll dedicate a lot of resources to getting you safely to that terminal and covering your back for the five or ten minutes it takes you to get the door open.

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Now, all this fun aside, this is approaching a 'standard' MMO design again - progression (check), skill list and trigger items/targets (check), grinding for points/xp (check). This isn't where I wanted to take the concept, but it seems to be the way it's leaning.

Don't let it go that way. Give it some more thought, and I think you'll be able to keep it fresh and interesting.

EDIT: Good grief, I think I've killed it. Sorry.

[Edited by - Iron Chef Carnage on February 7, 2006 6:08:29 PM]