'You say you got a great idea for a game? I can tell you that your idea could be fantastic but it isn't worth nothing'.
I am on of the people who have had an idea for a game, rather than amazing new gameplay more of making a good complex story, and hopefull creating a good combat system, mixing elemtents from previous games of it's kind.
The harsh reality is that everyone in the industry has a back-log of ideas. The thing that has real market value is being able to take an idea and actually turn it into a game.
,..And I wasnt Odhero asking the same question again,... I was trying to find middle ground, a prototype of your system with supporting materials, I guess its of no importance, you guys are obviously frustrated with poeple asking for help.
When I was a younger lad, I followed advice from career advisors and sent out a number of emails in the gameing industry to find out things like what qualifications are required for entry level possitions, what skills are valued, what home study can be done, what is valued in a portfolio of work etc. As you can guess I got 0 replies. lol. I then joined a few Indie game developments, trying to have something to show, guess what? they all flopped due to lack of manower, orphaned engines, discontinued support and many other reasons. Further things I encountered was theft of work and even people not genuinely making a game, just messing with people. I have come to the conclusion that your going to have to take the bull by the horns, try to do it yourself, or try to find a team that will actualy deliver to join. Either way it seems, research, research, research.
I would say to Odhero that from where I am now these are the next steps i will follow. I'm sorry getting pretty jaded, but will try to be possitive from here.
1. look for an audience, study what they want, modify your idea for the consumer after all a game should be played and enjoyed. 2. for a first projct look for an existing or developing game engine with an existing player base that could possibly be a close match to your requirements. there are some great freeware engines around with fans. alot of research here to avoid dying engines, etc. 3. Again, study the audience associated with this engine, look at what is popular and thier wish lists, unfortunately compromise again to make your game fit the engine and this audience, yes I know we have new ideas but if we cant make the game as they keep saying, its worthless. 4. Most games flop due to too much to do, not enough people, so aim for a Demo to try to generate interest and recruit more people to work on the game. 5. guage a realistic goal for the demo from who is interested in working on the project and how much time you want to invest, unfortunately building a team isnt that easy, good people skills or a team member who is good at this is needed. 6. Try to find a mentor or two in the community of the engine you are working with. 7. complete a demo, supply a good website with forums for feedback, take note of people reactions and interests to see what you need to do next, or if you should move on to another project, change engines or try to complete a mini game. (dont you love how I understated that? hehe)
I dunno, maybe people here will be able to supply better advice than this, I'm just starting to research myself. Like you I came here for constructive advice.
This my not be on topic, but I feel it has sort of drifted to this.
I havn't had the dream of being a game designer for too long. I drew or my pictures and design as a small hobby, I never thought it could get anywhere, but a freind saw it and thought yeah this is good, you should be a games desinger. Now obviously it's just a freinds advice, but it made me look into the industry abit more nonetheless. Looking over sites I found different defintions of a games designer, many said these make the ideas for a game, design the story, charcters, levels and methods of play. Others said they work on a game idea presented to them, and program it.
So what is the REAL defintion of Games desinger? (<<< This is the question :) )
I've been thinking it was the first one, about making ideas, but also directing the programmers etc. I was wondering if some of you people from the actual industry can tell me what a game desinger truly is.
A designer's role varies from developer to developer. Some do design docs and art (character design & 3D modelling), some do level building, some do gameplay design and story, some do puzzle/game play scripting (using a game engines scripting system) or any mix of all the above. But whatever the job entails at a particular company one thing is universal - the designer has to get their hands dirty and actually do stuff throughout the project.
Game design doesn't actually involve coming up with reams of ideas. Game design is much more involved. You have to know how to tell if ideas really are good for a game (which most people think they can do, but really can't). You have to know how to take a vague idea and flesh it out, describe it, build an entire world out of it, and then carve back out a chunk of that world and turn it into a game. You have to know how to mold and shape your idea around the constraints of technology, money, and time. You have to know how to communicate your idea clearly and efficiently so that your team can produce it. You have to know how to pour your energy and passion into an idea to make it the best it can be. You have to know how to emotionally detach yourself from something you really really wanted, but simply isn't possible or practical. You have to know how to create, sculpt, refine, and reimagine your idea over time.
Most designers, as Obscure said, will do a lot of direct "concrete" work on the project. The actual work they do varies on different teams. I'm primarily a programmer, but I do a lot of high-level interface and gameplay design as well. Our team lead does a lot of management and coordination tasks in addition to high-level design and planning.
Generally, to be a designer, you have to know what it takes to make a game. You have to know how your team works, and how to help them accomplish the design. As has been said, an idea (or even a highly detailed plan) isn't worth the cost of the paper it's printed on in the game industry. The only thing that has any value is the ability and resources to bring a plan to life. A good designer knows how to make a plan that his team can effectively follow, knows how to project a vision that everyone can catch and help realize, and knows how to adjust the design as needed to handle the realities of game development. In the real world, you don't write a 500 page document with every single bit of the game spelled out, and then go program it; game design, art, code, and even the entire game concept can and will change repeatedly and continually over the course of the project. Game development is a fluid, evolutional process, not an assembly line process. Being able to cope with that dynamic environment is what separates a good designer from a college student with a "cool idea."
It can be very discouraging to look at the industry and see how hard it really is to take an idea from paper to reality. It's most certainly a challenge, but it isn't impossible. The main thing is that you can't attack the fortress from the front, so to speak; that is, you can't walk into a game development office with a sheet of paper and expect to get a chance to lead a team (even if you're a very well known, respected, and successful designer). The game industry is a meritocracy; if you have power and influence in the industry, it's because you've earned it, and because you have the skills to earn it.
Frankly, there are very few people who are good at game design. A lot of people can come up with reasonably good ideas, but that's not enough. So looking to start a career in game design without prior credentials, experience, and sample work is going to be futile. Find some indie projects (or start one) and prove yourself as a designer; prove that you can do everything that's needed. Then you've got a shot at a professional position. Until you prove yourself, though, you have no rank in the industry, and you won't get any rank (at least, not in any development house that's worth working for).
I'd highly recommend the book Swords and Circuitry to give you a clearer idea of how the design process works in the industry. It's specifically about CRPGs, but the lessons apply to games of all types.
Original post by GameFreeek Your reaction to my comments in this thread also makes your contribution suspect as overly aggressive. How bout teaching OdHero more stuffs he need to know, kindly?
The following is an excerpt from my conversation log in #gamedev. Certain names have been redacted to protect identities. I apologize in advance for the profanity.
Quote:
Jan 17 02:02:10 ****** oluseyi why do you think your so superiorJan 17 02:11:58 Oluseyi ******, i don't think i'm superior. i think i'm honest.Jan 17 02:12:18 Oluseyi you came in here a few weeks ago talking all big about making money via the stock market and all that like you were some kind of expertJan 17 02:12:41 Oluseyi turns out you're a high school kid who can't even afford to put the principles he espouses into practiceJan 17 02:12:55 Oluseyi without practice, then, your principles lack credibility. but you wouldn't shut up.Jan 17 02:13:13 Oluseyi then you talk about "you used to program in C++" - when? grade school? kindergarten?Jan 17 02:13:29 Oluseyi you're full of shit. and i don't like people that are full of shit.Jan 17 02:13:48 Oluseyi i've given five years to GameDev as a community, teaching, sharing, reproving, administering, taking the heat for my convictionsJan 17 02:14:05 Oluseyi people like you have a tendency to either leech from that community, or mislead some - and thus give me more work to doJan 17 02:14:09 Oluseyi i don't appreciate itJan 17 02:14:28 Oluseyi so if you want me to respect you, respect your fucking self. drop the pretense. you're a kid, and you don't know shitJan 17 02:14:39 Oluseyi there's nothing wrong with not knowing shitJan 17 02:14:54 Oluseyi i didn't know shit when i started. i still don't know shit about a lot of areas.Jan 17 02:15:10 Oluseyi i don't answer questions on OpenGL, or on .NET specifics, or on advanced DirectXJan 17 02:15:33 Oluseyi so grow some balls, be a man, accept your ignorance and embark on a journey in pursuit of knowledgeJan 17 02:15:39 Oluseyi does that answer your question?Jan 17 02:16:58 Oluseyi i don't mean to be mean. sometimes i'm just forced to be.
I'm not your mother. I'm not your cheerleader. So you have an idea and you found GameDev - so have over 300,000 other people. You haven't done anything impressive yet. You want to. I want you. But the first thing you need is to disabuse yourself of notions fostered by BS "coverage" in gaming mags, or the way interviews don't talk about the specifics of making a game. The entire reason this site - and dozens like it - exists is to provide concrete information on how to get that done. If you're not going to take any of the information being given to you, though, then leave... because you're taking people's time and attention away from others who will.
If you listen to us, we could have you making a basic game within three months - less if you're technically inclined. When I started, in 1993, there was no resource like GameDev, and I didn't even have access to the internet. It took me three months of intensely reading help files just to write simple text manipulation programs. In BASIC. Game development isn't hard, but it does require hard work and dedication, and nobody's going to do all that hard work while you sit back and reap the rewards. fin.
I'm ready to give everything I know - I've been giving it for five years. And the truth is that I'm basically leaving this community in the next six months because life obligations are building up. You think I have time to waste massaging the egos of people who aren't ready to work hard?
The reason mods have responded quickly and harshly to your comments is because we have all had to do significantly more work re-teaching people who have been misled. This is why we all visit the For Beginners forum. This is why we made one of our best C++ people (Fruny) the moderator of this forum. This is why we're revising our beginner resources, again. It costs us less to invest this much effort now than it will cost us to correct OdHero five months from now if he continues to labor under false assumptions.
Old habits die hard, especially bad ones. Better they not be learned in the first place.
At the moment I just want to get a better knowledge of the industry, it's true, I don't know anything on it, or at least I have no experience in it. There's been alot of argument which I havn't meant to cause. I didn't ever say I thought my ideas were brilliant, or my plans brilliant, heck, I didn't even say I was heart set on being a designer.However, like some who love a hobby, have wanted to take it one step further. At the moment I'm thinking on taking a computer science course which offers alot of programing skill for my further education, along with a few other subjects. Let's just say I'm keeping my options open. Like I said designing stuff has always been a hobby of mine, since being a kid I'd write stories, or draw all sorts of things, but for awhile now I was desinging my own game, I didn't think about sending it to a games company or anything like that, but it did make me curious if it was possible to simply presenting your plan to a company ( thanks to you guys I found it not likely at all ).
And so after I wanted to know what exactly is a games desinger if not an 'idea machine' which at least in the general eye of most gamers is what they are believed to be. And I feel that has been answered. So I have got what I came for, I didn't come here for people to comfort me (although I didn't come to be flamed either) I just wanted straight answers from the community, and I did. So Oluseyi is correct for the most part, although it is much nicer to get an answer that is calm rather than more agressive answers. I hope that has cleared any argument in this topic.
EDIT - Now checking through the Sloperama link, I have found the most detailed answer to my first question yet, it says how you turn the idea into a well written game design (I assume this as a plan, as sloperama describes it as having to contain stats, weapons, places, quests etc). There's even a guide to writing one, so I may try and turn my ideas into one. Also I have learned the plan doesn't get you game made, but it can land you a job. :) Great link.
[Edited by - OdHero on January 17, 2006 2:23:04 PM]
Original post by OdHero Is the last post meant to be for me aswell?
It's directly primarily at GameFreeek, but it's for everyone.
We need to get past "feelings." I need to be able to tell you the truth without loads of emo crap. And because you, OdHero, seem to have been able to do that, you're already ahead of the game.
Good luck. We have tons of resources on this site, so get cracking. Spend some time here before you post any more on the forums and it will help you a ton!
Original post by OdHero I have learned the plan doesn't get you game made, but it can land you a job. :)
Not to be excessively negative, but just be careful with that line of thought. A good document in and of itself is highly unlikely to get you a design job; for a regular job you'll need either some other, proven skills, or some proof that your design skills are really as good as your paper says they are. Design is a fairly high-ranking position in most studios, so don't expect to get to start out there. (Sort of like how you don't join the army as a Colonel or General.)
However, a good design document can and will help you set up (or join) an indie team, which will provide invaluable experience - and, if you're at least moderately successful, will provide you with proof that your design skills are up to par. Once you've got a good project or three under your belt, even if they don't make money or necessarily even get finished, you'll be much more prepared for a full job. Hiring development studios will definitely pay more attention to you as an incoming designer if you've indicated, from real experience, that you "grok" game design.
In my experience, there's no "magic door" into the professional industry; it takes some upfront work and experience first. However, that work and experience is usually quite a lot of fun and always very educational, so that's really not a bad thing - except for the fact that you have to wait a little longer before getting paid to make games [wink]
Original post by GameFreeek Your reaction to my comments in this thread also makes your contribution suspect as overly aggressive. How bout teaching OdHero more stuffs he need to know, kindly?
The following is an excerpt from my conversation log in #gamedev. Certain names have been redacted to protect identities. I apologize in advance for the profanity.
Quote:
Jan 17 02:02:10 ****** oluseyi why do you think your so superiorJan 17 02:11:58 Oluseyi ******, i don't think i'm superior. i think i'm honest.Jan 17 02:12:18 Oluseyi you came in here a few weeks ago talking all big about making money via the stock market and all that like you were some kind of expertJan 17 02:12:41 Oluseyi turns out you're a high school kid who can't even afford to put the principles he espouses into practiceJan 17 02:12:55 Oluseyi without practice, then, your principles lack credibility. but you wouldn't shut up.Jan 17 02:13:13 Oluseyi then you talk about "you used to program in C++" - when? grade school? kindergarten?Jan 17 02:13:29 Oluseyi you're full of shit. and i don't like people that are full of shit.Jan 17 02:13:48 Oluseyi i've given five years to GameDev as a community, teaching, sharing, reproving, administering, taking the heat for my convictionsJan 17 02:14:05 Oluseyi people like you have a tendency to either leech from that community, or mislead some - and thus give me more work to doJan 17 02:14:09 Oluseyi i don't appreciate itJan 17 02:14:28 Oluseyi so if you want me to respect you, respect your fucking self. drop the pretense. you're a kid, and you don't know shitJan 17 02:14:39 Oluseyi there's nothing wrong with not knowing shitJan 17 02:14:54 Oluseyi i didn't know shit when i started. i still don't know shit about a lot of areas.Jan 17 02:15:10 Oluseyi i don't answer questions on OpenGL, or on .NET specifics, or on advanced DirectXJan 17 02:15:33 Oluseyi so grow some balls, be a man, accept your ignorance and embark on a journey in pursuit of knowledgeJan 17 02:15:39 Oluseyi does that answer your question?Jan 17 02:16:58 Oluseyi i don't mean to be mean. sometimes i'm just forced to be.
I'm not your mother. I'm not your cheerleader. So you have an idea and you found GameDev - so have over 300,000 other people. You haven't done anything impressive yet. You want to. I want you. But the first thing you need is to disabuse yourself of notions fostered by BS "coverage" in gaming mags, or the way interviews don't talk about the specifics of making a game. The entire reason this site - and dozens like it - exists is to provide concrete information on how to get that done. If you're not going to take any of the information being given to you, though, then leave... because you're taking people's time and attention away from others who will.
If you listen to us, we could have you making a basic game within three months - less if you're technically inclined. When I started, in 1993, there was no resource like GameDev, and I didn't even have access to the internet. It took me three months of intensely reading help files just to write simple text manipulation programs. In BASIC. Game development isn't hard, but it does require hard work and dedication, and nobody's going to do all that hard work while you sit back and reap the rewards. fin.
I'm ready to give everything I know - I've been giving it for five years. And the truth is that I'm basically leaving this community in the next six months because life obligations are building up. You think I have time to waste massaging the egos of people who aren't ready to work hard?
The reason mods have responded quickly and harshly to your comments is because we have all had to do significantly more work re-teaching people who have been misled. This is why we all visit the For Beginners forum. This is why we made one of our best C++ people (Fruny) the moderator of this forum. This is why we're revising our beginner resources, again. It costs us less to invest this much effort now than it will cost us to correct OdHero five months from now if he continues to labor under false assumptions.
Old habits die hard, especially bad ones. Better they not be learned in the first place.
Im really sorry then. You can continue to treat others with that kind of attitude. You can use more profanity against kids who know less than you becoz you moded for 5 years. Orally abuse them more, and all kids will automatically acquire the means to make games, yep, thats a new concept and it prolly works, proven by you, add that to the FAQs. "We talk **** to you and you better dont talk back or we will talk more **** to you."
I thought we're talking about advises here, and you wasted such a long time typing all your background out so you can continue your harsh talk, and you think we stole your credits? If credits is the meaning of your life, I will make you happier by giving you more credits.
It takes the same amount of time to talk harshly and kindly, it doesnt waste any more of your time. Unless when people said something you dislike, and you again type out all your backgrounds to shut them up, look at your log, 1 sentence attracts an essay, is that not time consuming? If Im wasting your oh so precious time, why are you continue to reply to me? Becoz Im wrong? Im wrong coz I requested mods to talk less harshly? Or becoz I said something you find unpleasing?
[Edited by - GameFreeek on January 17, 2006 11:04:18 PM]
