Is there a way to make a MMO feel expansive, while keeping short travel time? EVE online has a great feeling universe, but travel time is just absurd. The game I am designing will not be space, or future or magical. Note that the feeling of expansiveness is key. If there is a giant world but instant teleport, that diminishes the feeling.

How about plane shifting?

Usually when we think of large worlds we think horizontally, since by common knowledge you can't really build worlds vertically. Well, maybe...if you just had many many layers of dungeons. But then we could build virtual planes stacked on top of each other. This will expand the world and make travelling interesting in itself.

For example, you can then have fixed points that link 2 or more planes that one can use to traverse, or have mages that have specific spells that can move the group from one plane to the next, in some specific order, of course.

The world can then grow almost infinitely without much increase in travel time.

Just a random idea.

It's tough, because any kind of time dilation or "beaming" would require either an explanation (magic/tech/cutscene) or suspension of disbelief, or both. Basically, you've got several options:

Teleporting - Just like it sounds. Whether it's Star Trek or Whell of Time or Dragon Ball Z, translocation will require some kind of mechanic that lets people get from one place to another in the blink of an eye, but somehow can't put a nuke in the enemy base.

Geometry tricks - Like the plane shifting idea, this is the phenomenon of a two-mile stretch of road connecting towns that are twenty or two hundred miles apart. As long as you walk that road, you'll get to the destination, but don't try to draw a map.

Time compression/dilation - I can never tell which word to use. Basically, you get on a train and watch a thirty-second cutscene while your guy travels for three hours. Tough in an MMO setting, because it would amount to beaming.

If you want it to feel huge without the huge travel times, you're in a bit of a bind. How about super-fast travel? It requires some kind of cheating, but it could work out well enough. IF you could fly, and see the expanses of ground pass under you at mach 8, would that be good enough?

Now that I think of it, getting shot out of the cannon in Secret of Mana was great for this. You see all that map, and you often have to walk back, which sucks, but the actual cannon trip is quite quick. Later, on FLammie, it's the same way. Huge map, easy to get lost, but not five hours of walking.

Or just make travel part of gameplay, like Wind Waker sort of did, but don't dumb it down so hard.

The idea of stacking vertical planes isn't a bad one, i thought of Ultima Underworld when i read that. 8 Levels of a vertical Abyss, you don't need to teleport or some such, and while it sounds small the world was quite large. Since its a vertical dungeon you could create various shortcuts or passages so a person could move from say, level 1 to level 5 quickly, and then follow a few passages to another shortcut to go down to level 8. Inexperienced players would be stuck walking the long way since they wouldn't know where the switches are to open the secret doorways. ;D

I think the problem needs to be reframed so that instead of reducing travel time you reduce the need to travel. If each region has enough resources and activities to keep players of a range of levels engaged then no one has cross great swaths of wilderness to play the game normally.

So why travel? For one, there are a number of people who like to explore and long travel times come with the territory -- literally. Also, a select few quests for high-level adventurers could require a great deal of travel to encourage some cross-pollination between regions. This way the great distances actually become a feature for your higher level players as it opens up more of the game to them.

Well, its an MMO, not MMORPG I am working on, so quests and the like are out the door. It is strategy and tactics. Some distance factor is needed, otherwise reinforcements would arrive too quickly. The fast travel method may be the best option, with the occasional accident where you need to walk a ways (so you can appriciate it). As long as it is not frequent and the walk itself is interesting somehow,I think it could be pulled off.

Trains and the occasionaly old prop plane will be the fastest. Then camels/horses. Then running/walking. I was considering an option. Lets say you and your squad are way out in the field. It would ruin the fun if you got wiped out and had to try all over again. So maybe you could place a spawn outpost every 5 miles or something (and only allowing 3 outposts per squad. So it will auto delete the oldest outpost one 3 are out), that way you can get back to the battle, but the enemy will still be able to gain ground. Should they push on enough to take 3 outposts, then you would be SOL.

Obviosuly, the details are ambigous at this point. I do not want to reveal too much yet though.

On a side note, I was thinking of giving all squad leaders a little tactical advisor (computer ai). It would do basic battle situation analysis and give what The Art of War says about the situation. Since player squads will fight eachother, it may increase the level of tactics used. It will probably be like clippy, but not annoying (small window in corner that doesnt block view).

Although it wasn't an MMO, Dungeon Sieges system with the little platforms was pretty cool. Morrowind, again not an MMO, had teleport vendors.

In Ultima Online you could teleport somewhere instantly, if you where a mage or had a scroll of teleportation, however you had to first get to the area you wish to teleport to first by some other means, eg walk or boat and mark a 'rune' when you got there, then you could cast teleport on this rune which takes you back there (this used up a reagent or scroll), this means you have to explore in the first place but after that its easy enough to get back. I used to have a mage who made books of runes full of locations and sold them ingame :o)

Or how about like Frontier Elite, you had a hyperspace drive, however this had a limited jump distance and the further you jumped the more fuel required, till you jump to some system will no source of fuel and you get stuck there hehe, also there was the chance of a mis-jump which could put you anywhere!

These might not apply directly to your game but it gives you some ideas :o)

You're obviously attempting something 'realistic'.

You've got two options, really:

1) Have a 'fast-travel' system and sparse areas between smaller 'interesting' areas. Your trains are a good bet here - within an 'interesting' area have them move at a speed so you can do your horse-to-train jumping train robbery or whatever, and then when they leave the area have them accelerate to get to the next area quickly. This is like a 'slow teleport'.
You could also do this to a lesser extent with horses / camels but the feeling of expanse comes when a player tries to cross the sparse area not in a train.

2) Reduce physical and time scale. This is the GTA:SA method. Game time runs very quickly which gives the impression of 'days' of travel. The physical scale of some areas (not actual size, but content) is much reduced (those teeny-tiny villages) to give the impression of passing through different areas. Unrealistically scaled geographic variations also work in this regard.

From what it sounds like you're doing option 1 looks like a good bet, it'd fit in with the trains pretty well I reckon.

Good luck with the design!