This is partly AI, partly design. I'll probably get better / more responses here than the AI board... (hope that's cool MKV) The Game: A 3D isometric SF RPG where the player adventures in space w/ a starship. The Problem: Looking to refine thoughts on how a star system might act more like an AI driven RTS base The Details: I've talked about this before w/ Nazrix & others: Imagine you want to make a town where NPCs respond like the units of an RTS base. Rather than scripts, they're keyed to objects, other units, buildings, and regions. The star systems I imagine work like towns. There are different regions which each have functions, stations, defenses, satellites, and ships. My thought is to make each area work a bit like an RTS base: There are resources, units that do certain things, and a network of dependencies between the "buildings." If this is done right, the player can respond to the area as if it were a strategic challenge / puzzle. By messing with parts of the network, they can acheive different goals. Here's how it might work. Improvements or criticism most appreciated: --- The "Buildings" These are things that are pretty fixed, or at least VERY slow moving (like Terran flying buildings in Starcraft). "Buildings" are modular stations and satellites. The modules of a station are like those of a starship, only on a larger scale: Shields, habitat sections, generators, cargo holds, etc. Satellites are things like defenses, detectors, power relays, etc. (They can also be stand alone modules like above) Some satellites appear in clusters to create a region like a minefield or sensor net. --- The "Units" These are ships. They're mobile, and respond to other units and the "town's" "buildings." They're most like NPCs. They range in type from fighters ("town guards") to merchants to passenger transports ("town citizens?"). --- Signals The units would be keyed to respond to the buildings and each other as transmitters (like the Sims work, I think). A unit low on health, for instance, might look for transmitters that emit an "I have health" signal. Damaged units might emit an "I need protection" signal. Buildings might also work the same way. They could even transmit their function, or value (for attack and defense). To act, units and buildings would filter and search the signals for targets to act upon. --- Networking Networking depends on resources, and how they're moved about and shared. Power, for instance, is transfered from solar power sats to relays to a cluster of stations. I am thinking about making this fairly detailed and systematic. For example: Say a ship transmits a distress call to a station. In code, the ship object would spawn a message object. This message object would get dumped into a "transit queue" with a destination. The destination could be a Comm Relay sat. The player could, then, look at the network and try to affect it. Not only could they jamm the original ship, they could wait at the Comm Relay and steal the message from the queue. Or, they could actually receive the message and relay it on to the station. Or they could destroy the Comm Relay sat so nothing gets through. I'm really looking for opinions on this part, especially. --- Resources These are things the player could disrupt / support / affect: Power, communications are the most obvious ones. Others? --- Gameplay If the main gameplay is combat, stealth, and trade, then each unit and building will have stats that reflect this. I'm not certain yet all the info each will need. Combat is fairly easy. Hit points, of course, and maybe power. Individual systems / modules (shields, comm strength for range and jamming, propulsion for speed). Stealth is a bit trickier. I think units and buildings, and the network they create, would give you ratings for stealth and detection. If satellites are fairly single-function, then stealth would work a bit like Starcraft where you have detectors and cloakable units. It's a bit more complicated, because my stealth is based on power emissions, appearance, and mass, but it's generally the same. (Uh, I think) Trade seems easy. Merchants would have a semi-randomly generated inventory, and desires. They'd respond to base broadcasts: Not only trade opportunities, but danger and such. --------- This is very rough, but I'd be happy to hear what you think... -------------------- Just waiting for the mothership... Edited by - Wavinator on January 3, 2001 8:34:13 PM

Sounds great. I am looking forward to this one, Wav. (even if you think that I am typically a medieval RPG guy )


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----------------------------
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Edited by - Nazrix on January 3, 2001 8:37:46 PM

Some of the time you will want to use different things like immoble buildings for instance. The obvious problem would be how do you make them immoble when the others are the opposite...

quote: Original post by jman12

Some of the time you will want to use different things like immoble buildings for instance. The obvious problem would be how do you make them immoble when the others are the opposite...

I''m not sure I understand. I can see some buildings being so hard to move, since they''re stations.

Is there something I''m not thinking about here?


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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Wavinator

This is partly AI, partly design. I''ll probably get better / more responses here than the AI board... (hope that''s cool MKV)

Woohoo! Another one of your posts and AI to boot!

quote: The "Buildings"

These are things that are pretty fixed, or at least VERY slow moving (like Terran flying buildings in Starcraft). "Buildings" are modular stations and satellites.

The modules of a station are like those of a starship, only on a larger scale: Shields, habitat sections, generators, cargo holds, etc.

Satellites are things like defenses, detectors, power relays, etc. (They can also be stand alone modules like above) Some satellites appear in clusters to create a region like a minefield or sensor net.

So these ''buildings'' will be in deep space, and not in orbit around planets? Because if they''re in orbit, they''re moving very fast, but they have a relative position. In deep space they may be stationary, but their position changes in relation to the planets due to their orbits.

quote: The "Units"
These are ships. They''re mobile, and respond to other units and the "town''s" "buildings." They''re most like NPCs. They range in type from fighters ("town guards") to merchants to passenger transports ("town citizens?").

Don''t try and lump it with medieval equivalents. It''s sci-fi, and some things can''t be matched, at least not without differences.

quote: Signals
The units would be keyed to respond to the buildings and each other as transmitters (like the Sims work, I think). A unit low on health, for instance, might look for transmitters that emit an "I have health" signal. Damaged units might emit an "I need protection" signal.

Buildings might also work the same way. They could even transmit their function, or value (for attack and defense). To act, units and buildings would filter and search the signals for targets to act upon.

Sim-like behaviour transmitters are easier on the AI than independent AI. However you don''t want to rely solely on it. Ie "Oh that ship says ''I am damaged''. I''ll attack it. Blam." No independent AI means single-minded attacking, and then getting blown away by the supporting Carrier in the convoy...

quote: Networking
Networking depends on resources, and how they''re moved about and shared. Power, for instance, is transfered from solar power sats to relays to a cluster of stations.

I am thinking about making this fairly detailed and systematic. For example: Say a ship transmits a distress call to a station. In code, the ship object would spawn a message object. This message object would get dumped into a "transit queue" with a destination. The destination could be a Comm Relay sat.

The player could, then, look at the network and try to affect it. Not only could they jamm the original ship, they could wait at the Comm Relay and steal the message from the queue. Or, they could actually receive the message and relay it on to the station. Or they could destroy the Comm Relay sat so nothing gets through.

I''m really looking for opinions on this part, especially.

Think line of sight. Jamming signals involves blocking the LOS with an ''opaque'' signal.

quote: Resources
These are things the player could disrupt / support / affect: Power, communications are the most obvious ones. Others?

This should really be a separate thread, but think :

Primary,Secondary and Tertiary Resources: (P) Raw Materials, (S) Traders/Refiners and (T) Merchants.

quote: Gameplay
If the main gameplay is combat, stealth, and trade, then each unit and building will have stats that reflect this. I''m not certain yet all the info each will need.

Combat is fairly easy. Hit points, of course, and maybe power. Individual systems / modules (shields, comm strength for range and jamming, propulsion for speed).

Stealth is a bit trickier. I think units and buildings, and the network they create, would give you ratings for stealth and detection. If satellites are fairly single-function, then stealth would work a bit like Starcraft where you have detectors and cloakable units. It''s a bit more complicated, because my stealth is based on power emissions, appearance, and mass, but it''s generally the same. (Uh, I think)

Trade seems easy. Merchants would have a semi-randomly generated inventory, and desires. They''d respond to base broadcasts: Not only trade opportunities, but danger and such.

Seems good enough. Just get it working first then refine it with play-testing. I think you may want to consider using subspace distortion to detect presence. The distortion being relative to mass and power output, as well as the material of the hull.

That way, stealth can be accomplished by: new hull, distortion dampening fields, and especially, shutting off the engines.

There we go, hope I didn''t miss anything.



"NPCs will be inherited from the basic Entity class. They will be fully independent, and carry out their own lives oblivious to the world around them ... that is, until you set them on fire ..."
"When you are willing to do that which others are ashamed to do, therein lies an advantage."

quote: Original post by morfe

Woohoo! Another one of your posts and AI to boot!

Hope I'm not wearing out my welcome.

quote:
So these 'buildings' will be in deep space, and not in orbit around planets?

Both, but the way they're dealt with they might as well be stable. Each system is made up of "encounter points." Each point contains ships or stations.

It's a snap to move the points in orbit, and I think will achieve a cool realistic feel. Each time you visit a point, the game will be loading a new "map."

quote:
Don't try and lump it with medieval equivalents. It's sci-fi, and some things can't be matched, at least not without differences.

Heh, just trying to widen the base of potential replies. Sometimes I think if I don't explain it in Tolkein fantasy terms, RPGers won't get it!!! (j/k)

quote:
No independent AI means single-minded attacking, and then getting blown away by the supporting Carrier in the convoy...

Right. I'm exploring the idea of abstract units, however. They're not units, per se, but the system still acts on them.

Example: A fleet unit. No prescence, but can still use the AI of a normal ship. When it forms, it would send a rally order to surrounding ships. The ships would then make up the fleet's stats (firepower, top speed). I THINK the AI would then be able to treat a fleet unit as in ways similar to a starship unit: Get health when weak, attack when strong, etc.)

quote:
Think line of sight. Jamming signals involves blocking the LOS with an 'opaque' signal.

Yeah, and I can see doing this for things like power relays and such. (Although I think I'm going to make comms a matter of transmitter power, so a bigger "tachyon radio" or more power to the emitter are the choices.

quote:
This should really be a separate thread, but think :

Primary,Secondary and Tertiary Resources: (P) Raw Materials, (S) Traders/Refiners and (T) Merchants.

Yeah, I'll put this in a seperate thread. Good idea.

quote:
Seems good enough. Just get it working first then refine it with play-testing. I think you may want to consider using subspace distortion to detect presence. The distortion being relative to mass and power output, as well as the material of the hull.

That way, stealth can be accomplished by: new hull, distortion dampening fields, and especially, shutting off the engines.

We're on the same wavelength: IFF beacon, hull class, power emissions, and gravity signature are what can be used to detect you. IFF can be cloned, hull class changed, emissions masked or ship systems powered down, and grav signature (the toughest) by using gravitation cover.

quote:
There we go, hope I didn't miss anything.

Very, very appreciated. I feared this was A) too long and B) too complicated to get replies. Thx!




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Just waiting for the mothership...

Edited by - Wavinator on January 5, 2001 10:38:14 PM