I was thinking of about technique based combat games and some things mentioned in another thread and I got to wondering what would be required for a game to have a technique based martial arts combat system where there players could create new techniques and the effectiveness of techniques would all be procedurally generated. Where by as new techniques are created and adopted by people older techniques are render obsolete and gradually phased out. Like wise it could be possible for an older forgotten technique to be rediscovered and used effectively against newer techniques This would have to be a MMO game. The way I see it is that techniques would be grouped into styles and styles grouped into schools. Maybe each style has a maximum number of 12 techniques in it and they all must use the same weapon/gear setup. So you couldn’t have combat style with both sword and staff techniques in it. Technique creation would probably consist of combining a number of desired properties together the number of properties that can be combined would be based on some stat. There would be some automatic properties assigned to the technique derived from the styles the player uses. New styles would derived from older styles and create a hierarchical tree of techniques. So for instance let’s say there are four original styles Tiger, Snake, Crane, and Monkey. As people play Crane becomes superior to Tiger thus make Tiger techniques ineffective against Crane Techniques. This also means that new styles derived from Crane style would be effective against Tiger style. So if crane style starts to dominate the game then players could create a new techniques and styles that have the property effective against Crane style. In this way players can create techniques specifically designed to combat other techniques. Although just because you attempt to create a style to defeat another one does not mean that it will be effective against it nor that it will be effective against other styles. Would what need to go into a system like this?

Your idea sounds like a MMO version of Jade Empire. The big thing in that game was collecting styles and using the appropriate style on the enemy at hand.

You might also check out Fighter Maker, but it seems you're less interested in the creation of techniques than you are in the drama of opposing schools. I see somebody's been watching Shaolin Monks vs. Whatever movies lately! [grin]

I'm also a little fuzzy on what you mean by "effectiveness" against other styles. You may want to work out the particular mechanics of that in a way that's more interesting than +x% more damage. Perhaps a stun mechanism?

Are we talking about real-time animated combat? How exactly would players define the animated movements of striking attacks? Or the complexities of grapple attacks? Or edit the pose of their stance?

Maybe you're talking about slightly less detail? Just guessing.

The moves maker in Die by the Sword shows you the point of maximum damage for each move - where the enemy should be for maximum effectiveness of the move. If you will make something like that in your game, and add to each move a pushing parameter(not necessary away from the player), you will put more strategy to combo planing, like doing a move that pushes the player up before a move with a hight maximum damage point and stuff like this.

Explain to me why one style wouldn't just come to own all the other ones eventually.

How about if you make the styles' power be a function of their age and popularity, such that older styles are stronger than new styles, but more popular styles are weaker than less popular styles? You could explain this by saying that popular styles are less surprising, so it's easier for your opponent to recognize your moves and intentions, while rarer styles are tougher to feel out. New styles will be crude and clumsy, while old styles will have elegance and refinement.

So the last master of Purple Heel Tae Kwon Do would be almost invincible, but if he gained fame and students and his style became known throughout the land, then people would be better at fighting against his method. Likewise, if the Imperial Wrestling style was standardized for the army, then any farmboy could learn a few tricks that would let him best a shock trooper, but ten generations later, when the empire is dust and only a handful remember the old ways, that style would make you a god among men.

Starting a style would be easy enough, but it would start out very raw and nearly useless, and you'd have to get a few martial artists together and train and refine it for months or years before it actually became a valid style. Then, though, it would be quite powerful (being new), and you could go from town to town besting fighters and developing a following.

So, basically, you are talking about a game like Spore.
Just, instead of the creatures being altered, it would be the fighting style, and it would be more restricted?

[Edited by - Bnty_Hntr on November 1, 2005 5:42:40 PM]

I think it would be an interesting play experiment- make an html version or similar, and open it up as sort of a tiny, limited mmo of sorts. Use only the school vs. school + vulnerabilities game mechanic. If one designed the combat system carefully, it would easily be possible to make any possible style have at least one or more vulnerabilities.

I think the issue of schools rising, creating/destroying dynasties of warriors/ dying out would rise to some really interesting gameplay if avatars died (but passed some or all combat stats on to a pupil which the player would then pick up and play). This would crush a lot of the boredom issues associated with complex Paper-Rock-Scissors online game systems.

Perhaps permadeath should be employed to cull the poor styles...

Permadeath is something that really needs to be used a lot more in games. In a system like this, where the school would outlive your chr, the character's death would be less catastrophic, and permadeath would be less horrible. I think permadeath would be embraced by players if you do it right.

For instance, have each character only capable of learning a certain amount. You can go balls-out and master one style, or become proficient in two, or study three, or learn about a dozen. Knowing more different styles makes it easier to make your own, but you're not much of a fighter. So you need to start a new character, kill off the old one, and get the new one polished up. Each new "generation" in the school boosts its power and capacity to kick asses, and you never really miss the old guys, since your new guy is way more awesome. It's like a grind, but instead of levelling, you die.

Some enforced aging would be appropriate, too. Pai Mei didn't always have that beard. Fable fell short of the mark, but if you don't put so much effort into the other systems, I think time passage would be possible to implement.

Slightly off-topic, but I believe the best games are those that focus on just a few systems. By their nature, they can be far more visceral (no matter what the presentation or the game mechanics are).

Quote:

Original post by Iron Chef Carnage Permadeath is something that really needs to be used a lot more in games. In a system like this, where the school would outlive your chr, the character's death would be less catastrophic, and permadeath would be less horrible. I think permadeath would be embraced by players if you do it right. For instance, have each character only capable of learning a certain amount. You can go balls-out and master one style, or become proficient in two, or study three, or learn about a dozen. Knowing more different styles makes it easier to make your own, but you're not much of a fighter. So you need to start a new character, kill off the old one, and get the new one polished up. Each new "generation" in the school boosts its power and capacity to kick asses, and you never really miss the old guys, since your new guy is way more awesome. It's like a grind, but instead of levelling, you die. Some enforced aging would be appropriate, too. Pai Mei didn't always have that beard. Fable fell short of the mark, but if you don't put so much effort into the other systems, I think time passage would be possible to implement.

I'm feeling this. A lot. Treat the characters, instead of like avatars (as many overserious MMO players do), like creatures ala Monster Rancher.

How about a way to create less attachment to the characters through the gameplay? The moves are custom-built by the player, but not chosen in combat. Instead of being limited to one or two characters, let players create a "stable" of fighters to train. Let the characters grow and fight on their own, all using your own personally-developed "style", or styles you've learned from others (will elaborate on this later).

In fact, let's replace the word "stable" above with "dojo". Sounds a bit different, huh? Instead of training a single character, multiple characters are trained simultaneously. Perhaps students could be hand-selected from [pseudo-]randomly-generated NPCs. It's like a draft, you know?

Because I personally am not a huge fan of MMO audiences, why not consider leaving this as a mostly-offline game? Instead of providing high-maintenance servers, provide a central server where players can trade styles and enter arena-format competitions, including multiplayer tournaments. This central server could be used to recruit new NPCs to dojos.

And what if the NPCs are basically unique? MMO designers often seem to face problems with content creation, which is an ongoing process as long as the game remains playable. Just look at all of the EQ expansions, for instance. What if, instead of world content being created, NPCs were tweaked and "born", given special hidden abilities? Maybe this little weak NPC with the terrible stats is prone to have fits of blind rage and gain massive stat bonuses? Maybe the biggest-looking guy has a heart-condition that he hasn't told you about yet. Stuff like that.

About competition -- let the players run friendly competitions (nonlethal to NPC characters) on their own, as well as having periodic moderated "big tournaments" (for-keeps, lethal) run on the central servers. Provide more risk, but "styl-ish" (pun intended) rewards as well. Are you sure you want to enter your most talented fighter in this deadly competition? Is training in that powerful new style worth losing a lot more frequently for?

Players would be able to create new styles through experimentation and combination of moves they've mastered. Players would be able to master new moves through experience. Friendly bouts with friends would act as training-through-observation, but prevent true mastery without extensive practice. Lethal tournaments could reward players with instant mastery over moves, but, again, risking their best fighters to win.

I'm sure I forgot something here, but is anybody with me on this one?


EDIT: First thing I forgot to touch on -- let characters age and die naturally, taking their experience with them. Allow them to live for, I don't know...maybe a year. The point would be to encourage players to train well-rounded stables of fighters that are proficient in multiple styles...which leads into the next thing I forgot...

Let the players delegate positions to students in their dojo. Let the player award ranks to students in their dojo according to their perceived mastery (in their personal styles, or observed styles) by judging their performance. Let the player manage their styles and dojos as they please -- doing things such as defining tests of mastery in a style (go wild with this one), some basic fiscal management, etc. -- because, with the ideas I mentioned above, this would make up nearly all of the gameplay. Let the player decide who is qualified to instruct the other students to mastery by delegating "master" ranks.

Still needs some refinement, but I think I'm done. It's late, I'll be back tomorrow afternoon, yo.