Is there any way to make random events more welcome in an RPG-like or strategy game? For a while now I've been imagining a system where player actions in an RPG-like game tweak stats behind the scenes. The most simple, for instance, involves the power of a clan or faction: If you capture or kill its members, you reduce the chance of encountering them in their sphere of operation. You also reduce their effectiveness and range. A more complex system would have overlapping factors that were related. Bad dialog choices, for instance, when talking to a powerful authority (like a corrupt chief of police) might spawn more stops and searches by police; or thwarting a criminal syndicate might mean that not only do the police get stronger, but the chance that thugs and assassins come after you increases. Most of the time when I mention random events the response here is pretty negative. I'm wondering if this is because most games focus strongly on a victory condition, either in story or game ending conditions, and any random event is usually viewed as an intrusion. If this (or something like it) were the case, would it work if:

• The game's NPCs and storyline acknowledged your state based on random events. For instance, if you've got an assignment to fly a ship to some star to rescue the governor's niece and your ship is randomly attacked by pirates, the governor (after successful conversation interaction) should help. After all, you need to be on par for the mission.
• All random events were based completely on location variables or player stats. If you get attacked by pirates, for instance, it's because you're in pirate country.
• There were immersion-appropriate means to see the variables. A map, for instance, might mark "pirate territory" with darker concentrations near suspected bases.
• The game never threw more than 1-3 events at you at any one time, and never more than 1 major event at any one time. You can't, for instance, have a massive weatherstorm and alien invasion at the same time unless they're linked. (Players could abuse this, but it's probably more important not to get overwhelmed)
• Player and NPC actions tipped the location variables so that the events could be changed in magnitude or frequency. Military or player mercenary raids on the main pirate base, for instance, could eliminate pirate encounters in the system for awhile or (if special conditions applied) for good.

It goes without saying that there have to be a wide number of patterns for the events not to get stale. I also know that it's important to (somehow) link the random events so that it's just not one set of events after another. My hope is that if players can see and change the stats as a part of gameplay this would be a natural form of leveling, and they'd do it for competing or warring NPCs, factions or even (maybe) species. (I should note that there's no out-of-game restore/quickload in the game I'm working on, so if players don't avoid a setback they'll be challenged to recover, and the game is open ended so they can play in other areas if they're not up to a challenge.)

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Apologies, btw, for the repeat, I know I've posted on before, but I've never locked down a complete resolution.

Your actions could and should alter the number of hostiles or their individual strength in a given area, but there should never be a modification of chance. That's mainly because randomly spawned encounters (you walk 2 feet forward on world map, suddenly you are in a battle) are a relic from the limitations of the 8bit days that should be discarded. Since the days of the SNES it's been possible to do battle encounters correctly, and given the development resources, CPU power, and storage capabilities, there is no excuse at all not to do it the right way.

First off, may I state that I love random events if they are handled in a good way. The right amount of randomness can add a lot to a game.

I'm not entirely sure exactly what type of random events you want in your game, Wavinator. This might be because I haven't yet got a good picture in my mind of what your game is like to play, since every week there's another facet of the design that changes my perception. Usually that doesn't make a difference to the answers to your questions, but for something like random events I feel that the approach that is best is heavily dependent on the type of game you are making. My replies may start skewing off toward the ideas I have for my own game designs, which often are also based on random elements.

This might be hard to explain, but in your mind does playing the game have more of a simulation feel (i.e. the player is subject to the whims of an uncaring universe), or does it have a more story-like feel (i.e. the player is the "chosen one", for good or for ill, and the universe singles the player out for special treatment). This can shape the types of random events you throw at the player, as the set of logic you use is different.

To make random events work, I think the most important thing is to base them on some kind of logic. As you've written, your current state in the game world must be used as the basis of which events occur. Things like faction standing or current equipment are good starting points; it should be more likely for a pirate attack if you are in dangerous territory flying a weak merchant vessel rather than if you were in a safe zone in a military cruiser.

The next thing which would make them great is if you can chain them; the result of one random event making another type more likely. For example, if you humiliate a pirate clan by easily defeating them in a weak ship, maybe they'll come after you for revenge. Or maybe they'll stay clear of you since you are too big a risk (randomness could make this flip either way depending on the personality of the pirates, I guess [smile]). An easier way to do this is just to make the result change your standing with the V.I.Ps and faction in your game world; rescuing the governor's niece is likely to raise you standing with the governor, which will lead to favoured treatment and more (random) requests from the governor.

The final step is to somehow make all these random events chain together in such a way that they can entirely shape the path of your game story. This is extremely hard to do, but I think is possible if you plan the game correctly. This is what I eventually hope to achieve in my games sometime in the distant future.

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There's more opinions I could add, since I've been wrestling with this issue myself, but the question is actually quite broad; getting random events to work is a bit of an art. Is there a more specific aspect of the design of the random events you want solved?

My God, I just looked over your journal, Wavinator, and I have to say:
You are a one-man mind army!

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Original post by Michalson That's mainly because randomly spawned encounters (you walk 2 feet forward on world map, suddenly you are in a battle) are a relic from the limitations of the 8bit days that should be discarded. Since the days of the SNES it's been possible to do battle encounters correctly, and given the development resources, CPU power, and storage capabilities, there is no excuse at all not to do it the right way.

I do not understand this alien logic you speak of, sir! Please, explain more! [grin] (And great avatar, btw, is that Airplane?)

To an extent, spawning events and encounters is a great way to save on processing power and data storage. But aside from that, I'm not sure why you see this as aesthetically displeasing. Is it because the events come out of nowhere, or because of the direct means you mention (interruption in the overworld map).

I'm not sure what you mean by modification of chance, either. If the US National Guard post 100 soldiers on my block at nightfall, I think the chance of my car getting stolen drops significantly. Or did I completely misunderstand you?

I didn't really understand it either, but maybe he meant that having multiple random encounters back-to-back are really irritating?

I have no problem with random encounters, but I agree it was very irritating in the NES days playing Final Fantasy and being jumped by four giants every 3 tiles. However, if the random encounters have more purpose to them than "you have to finish this or you'll die/can't progress" (like having long-term consequences on faction, can lead to other things, etc.), and better yet if some are optional, they can be downright enjoyable.
Being interrupted on your way to a planet because you're being jumped by pirates every other moment is not fun, but choosing to engage a squad of them in combat with the chance to destroy them or to run - and maybe attacking them head on and succeeding would make law enforcement more friendly and pirates more fearful - is.

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Original post by Trapper Zoid I'm not entirely sure exactly what type of random events you want in your game, Wavinator. This might be because I haven't yet got a good picture in my mind of what your game is like to play, since every week there's another facet of the design that changes my perception.

Sorry about that, some of this is (dang it) still organic goo at this stage. As I propose some things, I discard others because they no longer fit or aren't as important as I thought.

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This might be hard to explain, but in your mind does playing the game have more of a simulation feel (i.e. the player is subject to the whims of an uncaring universe), or does it have a more story-like feel (i.e. the player is the "chosen one", for good or for ill, and the universe singles the player out for special treatment). This can shape the types of random events you throw at the player, as the set of logic you use is different.

Even harder to explain, I see a degree of both.[grin] That is, what I see specifically is a psuedo-simulated game universe which has events that sometimes have nothing to do with the player (e.g., "pirates raid a city!") but which the player can capitalize on, reduce or increase; and as backdrop to this, a grand story involving manipulative gods and the player as a century-spanning soul. Ignore the story and your avatar gets more of the uncaring universe with stats and relationships to manipulate. Latch onto the story, and the player develops both transcendental powers and transcendental enemies. (This last might be overkill if I find a more simple way of getting players to accept being different people in different future eras)

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To make random events work, I think the most important thing is to base them on some kind of logic. As you've written, your current state in the game world must be used as the basis of which events occur. Things like faction standing or current equipment are good starting points; it should be more likely for a pirate attack if you are in dangerous territory flying a weak merchant vessel rather than if you were in a safe zone in a military cruiser.

Exactly as I see it, with less of this being a factor the more you're doing something for the story. So you might have a pirate infested nebula suddenly quiet because you're doing story work, but when you come back, it's swarming.

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The next thing which would make them great is if you can chain them; the result of one random event making another type more likely.

I've been working on a finite state machine concept off and on for a few months that might help here, but it's a huge pain to both map and try to creatively come up with event families. But maybe even just a small accomplishment here has a lot of punch. Players like to know that things they do count in larger ways.

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The final step is to somehow make all these random events chain together in such a way that they can entirely shape the path of your game story.

Based on past posts, I think I might cede this one to you. [grin] This one is a nightmare simply because there are strings of interesting events, then (totally apart) there are good, soul-satisfying turns of events that are highly dependent on what came before and one's knowledge of psychology and the human heart.

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Is there a more specific aspect of the design of the random events you want solved?

At the moment I'm just trying to address what I think are hardened attitudes. Are they really hardened, or is there something fundamental that I'm completely missing.

For some reason, I think that a game world filled with random events would be very fun, provided the factors I listed in the OP were present. So I'm mystified when everybody doesn't automatically agree. [smile]

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Original post by Frequency Being interrupted on your way to a planet because you're being jumped by pirates every other moment is not fun, but choosing to engage a squad of them in combat with the chance to destroy them or to run - and maybe attacking them head on and succeeding would make law enforcement more friendly and pirates more fearful - is.

I agree with you, but let's take the "being jumped every moment" thing for a sec. What if there are regions in an open-ended galaxy where this is true (near the stronghold of self-styled Pirate King, for example). At a design level, these places exist solely to allow the player frenetic action, last-man standing endurance gameplay, etc. At a game universe level, they exist because the Navy hasn't cleaned them him out yet (maybe there are secret dependencies for this, like corruption or a kidnapping mission).

Okay, so what if YOU are responsible for handling how you deal with this. Firstly, by going at all. Then, by how to arm or stealth out your ship. Thirdly, by how you interact with NPCs (maybe you punk a junkie former navy officer into giving you a secret route, or hack into a local mobsters computer to get IFF codes to fly past untouched).

Does this seem fair?

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Original post by Sluginator My God, I just looked over your journal, Wavinator, and I have to say: You are a one-man mind army!

[lol] Appreciate the compliment. Now, if I could just get that freakin' cloning tank to work!

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Original post by WavinatorSorry about that, some of this is (dang it) still organic goo at this stage. As I propose some things, I discard others because they no longer fit or aren't as important as I thought.

I fully understand why it's hard to conceptualise the entire game; that's the problem I'm having whenever I write about the grand design of my magnum opus "Project Hamlet" (although you are a lot further on than me at this stage; it's going to take me years just to gain the game development skills to even start implementing this one).

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Even harder to explain, I see a degree of both.[grin] That is, what I see specifically is a psuedo-simulated game universe which has events that sometimes have nothing to do with the player (e.g., "pirates raid a city!") but which the player can capitalize on, reduce or increase; and as backdrop to this, a grand story involving manipulative gods and the player as a century-spanning soul. Ignore the story and your avatar gets more of the uncaring universe with stats and relationships to manipulate. Latch onto the story, and the player develops both transcendental powers and transcendental enemies. (This last might be overkill if I find a more simple way of getting players to accept being different people in different future eras)

Are you planning this as some sort of gameplay toggle, so the story interested players will get a different experience from the story adverse? That would be cool.

But the "manipulative gods" element can work in your favour when designing random elements. I think players will be more accepting of a rigged element of "luck" (either good or bad) if there's an external force explaining it. At the most simple sense it could just be because the game follows the same rules as stories (where the hero is expected to have a degree of luck), but having a mystical source driving the random events could help gloss over any logicistic problems of how unlikely a sequence of events can be.

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I've been working on a finite state machine concept off and on for a few months that might help here, but it's a huge pain to both map and try to creatively come up with event families. But maybe even just a small accomplishment here has a lot of punch. Players like to know that things they do count in larger ways.

That's the crux of the problem; defining the events in such as way as they can be chained in an appropriate fashion. I was thinking of going with a more logic based approach (X is the prerequisite for Y, using a STRIPS-like approach), but a properly defined finite state machine might work as well.

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Based on past posts, I think I might cede this one to you. [grin] This one is a nightmare simply because there are strings of interesting events, then (totally apart) there are good, soul-satisfying turns of events that are highly dependent on what came before and one's knowledge of psychology and the human heart.

I know [grin]. Even my big ambitious "Project Hamlet", which will probably take me a decade to complete, won't solve this. There's just so much you have to master to even approach this.

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At the moment I'm just trying to address what I think are hardened attitudes. Are they really hardened, or is there something fundamental that I'm completely missing. For some reason, I think that a game world filled with random events would be very fun, provided the factors I listed in the OP were present. So I'm mystified when everybody doesn't automatically agree. [smile]

I've noticed this a little bit too, but probably not to the same degree you have (only been regularly checking GameDev.Net recently). I guess it's just because random events have been so poorly implemented in the past. Most RPGs simply have the "random encounter" (which I loathe; it acts as a huge disincentive to explore). The ones in TBS games are a bit better, but they're always a bit basic. I suppose some people also prefer games to be more deterministic, and think large random events deter from that. However if implemented correctly I think they're great, even in strategy games (you just have to plan ahead and do some risk managment).

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Original post by Wavinator I agree with you, but let's take the "being jumped every moment" thing for a sec. What if there are regions in an open-ended galaxy where this is true (near the stronghold of self-styled Pirate King, for example). At a design level, these places exist solely to allow the player frenetic action, last-man standing endurance gameplay, etc. At a game universe level, they exist because the Navy hasn't cleaned them him out yet (maybe there are secret dependencies for this, like corruption or a kidnapping mission). Okay, so what if YOU are responsible for handling how you deal with this. Firstly, by going at all. Then, by how to arm or stealth out your ship. Thirdly, by how you interact with NPCs (maybe you punk a junkie former navy officer into giving you a secret route, or hack into a local mobsters computer to get IFF codes to fly past untouched). Does this seem fair?

It seems totally and completely fair! My gripe was more with having no control over the hordes of random encounters, added to the fact that hacking your way through them did nothing. Being constantly bombarded by pirate attacks with no way to stop the onslaught (winning the encounters has no effect) while trying to fly between a couple peaceful planets is Not Fun™.

But having an area swarming with pirates is more than fair if you've been informed by a government official that you're now flying into a massive pirate stronghold on a shady planet, and sounds like it could actually be a lot of fun if you were given the opportunity to try to wipe out this stronghold through a variety of means (as you alluded to). On the other hand, if you just aren't willing to rig your ship with really expensive combat equipment because you want to be a trader, don't complain when the pirates start pillaging your favorite trading posts!